SPOILERS Character discussion: Agnes/Perdita Nitt

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RathDarkblade

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#1
A few months ago, I finished re-reading "Carpe Jugulum", and recently finished re-re-reading "Maskerade".

I was struck by how much Agnes/Perdita had grown over the series - she only gets two books to shine in (all right, two and a bit from "Lords and Ladies"), but she becomes a fairly competent witch in her own right.

Consider: in LAL, Agnes is simply one of Diamanda's coven. In M!!!!!, Agnes becomes a "backing singer" for Christine, while Perdita stays in the background and thinks naughty thoughts. It's not until CJ that Agnes and Perdita become two separate entities inhabiting the same body, which gives Agnes some defence against the vampires. In TSC, we learn that Agnes manages her part-time witch career with a full-time singing career.

I'd have liked to have seen more of Agnes and Perdita. What would she perform? Certainly not opera, but she strikes me as too sophisticated for The Hedgehog Song. And what kind of witchcraft would she turn to?

Discuss! :)
 

Tonyblack

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Jul 25, 2008
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#2
I have always loved Agnes as a character and felt so sorry for her in Maskerade. Not only was she trying to establish a career for herself (that wasn't witchcraft), but she also ended up playing second fiddle to someone with no talent at all. Oddly, real opera doesn't have much of a problem with their singers being of a large stature, unlike the book does. I realise that Agnes was used, to a degree, as a tool to get Nanny and Granny to A-M, but she's hardly a minor character. Nanny and Granny seem to find it ridiculous that any girl given the chance to be a witch, wouldn't jump for it. But she has purposely distanced herself from Lancre and is determined to make the most of her freedom.
 

=Tamar

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May 20, 2012
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#3
Agnes also shows up in The Sea and Little Fishes, though she is mainly an observer. I like to think that she later gets to take at least third place in the Lancre Witch Trials, probably with something voice-related.
 

RathDarkblade

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#4
I have always loved Agnes as a character and felt so sorry for her in Maskerade. Not only was she trying to establish a career for herself (that wasn't witchcraft), but she also ended up playing second fiddle to someone with no talent at all.
Perhaps, but the description of Christine's singing always made me laugh. Kesta?! Maleydetta!! Porter see bloker!!

In M!!!!!, Agnes shows some signs of the deviousness (or cunning?) that is the hallmark of Discworld witches when she switches rooms with Christine. (It's also funny that Christine thinks of herself as a great singer. "I will need the big mirror now that I am a prima donna!! You don't mind, do you?!")

Yes, Christine's treatment of Agnes is appalling. But to do Christine justice, she is ... how shall I put it ... not smart. To quote Mr Salzella: "[Agnes] shows a remarkable grasp of the role ... [Christine] shows a remarkable grasp of wearing a dress ... Between them, they make one prima donna."

I've performed light opera for nearly 7 years (and classical music for 16 now), so M!!!!! always makes me laugh. :)

Oddly, real opera doesn't have much of a problem with their singers being of a large stature, unlike the book does.
Of course it's not how opera works - or, at least, how it worked in the past. Singers like Luciano Pavarotti, Renée Fleming and Beverly Sills are classic examples of, er, "pleasingly plump" singers who were able to sing well above the orchestra, but there were exceptions. For example, Jose Carreras is only 170 centimeters tall (5" 6') and has average body mass. Another exception is Norman Treigle, a great bass who was comparatively cadaverous.

Tastes in opera began to change in the 1970s. People began to want more realism in looks, acting and direction. No one would accept an obese Monserrat Caballe as a tubercular Mimi (La Boheme) or a portly Luciano Pavarotti as Alfredo (La Traviata), however beautiful. Singers who were larger lost weight. Deborah Voight, who shed 100 lbs, is a well publicized and controversial example. Others work very hard to keep it off.

It’s a misconception that opera singers are generally overweight. Some are, but most aren’t. Most are is physically fit because opera is physically demanding.

Larger singers are more suited to Wagnerian roles, which is where the "fat lady" comes in. But it's ludicrous to have a large person play a role like Violetta or Mimi where the heroine dies of consumption, and it was a major stumbling block for people to take opera seriously for a long time.

It's only relatively recently that opera companies started using singers that are more aesthetically pleasing in their looks but still have good voices than large women with very powerful voices, in such roles, because they deem the overall effect more important.

I realise that Agnes was used, to a degree, as a tool to get Nanny and Granny to A-M, but she's hardly a minor character. Nanny and Granny seem to find it ridiculous that any girl given the chance to be a witch, wouldn't jump for it. But she has purposely distanced herself from Lancre and is determined to make the most of her freedom.
And she gains her freedom by TSC, doesn't she? Her witching career is part-time, at best. Her full-time career is singing. :)

Agnes also shows up in The Sea and Little Fishes, though she is mainly an observer. I like to think that she later gets to take at least third place in the Lancre Witch Trials, probably with something voice-related.
Hmm. Ventriloquism, perhaps? I think she pulls off that trick during her audition, mistaking it for "voice projection".

"Where would you like me to project it? Up here? Or here? Or there? Or there?"

Meanwhile, Bucket and Salzella look around themselves in confusion. Where are those voices coming from? ;)
 
Likes: =Tamar

raisindot

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Oct 1, 2009
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#5
Pterry seemed to have a mixed narrative relationship with Agnes. Although she was a great singer and a promising witch, Pterry never stopped making really cruel jokes about her weight over and over and over. We only needed to hear that she was overweight once in the beginning, but he'd keep up the little snide insults throughout. He did a similar thing with Sybil, although with a little bit more respect.

I think after CJ he had no more interest in her as a character in the main books. She doesn't show up in Wee Free Men or I Shall Wear Midnight, even though in the latter Nanny, Granny and Magrat are there. Was she in The Shepherd's Crown? If she was her presence wasn't particularly memorable.
 

RathDarkblade

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#8
I do believe she was mentioned in TSC.
Yes - in TSC, we learn that Agnes manages her part-time witch career with a full-time singing career.

I have no idea whether this means anything but "Perdita" in Latin translates to "Despair" which seems apt when I think of the way the Perdita 'character' views the Agnes 'character' (or vice-versa).
Strange: in Italian and Spanish, "Perdita" translates as "lost". Perhaps the implication is that Agnes (at the start of Maskerade) is 'lost', and looking for something to do with herself?

I also wonder whether the word "perdita" is associated with the more modern word "perdition" (in Christian theology, a state of eternal punishment and damnation into which a sinful and unrepentant person passes after death - or in every day life, utter destruction or ruin). What do you think, hmm? :)
 

=Tamar

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May 20, 2012
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#9
Um... I think originally Agnes was being a Goth when she chose that name. "Perdita X" which (if I recall correctly) "sounded like someone with a cool and interesting initial." Then her inner person took it for her own.
 

RathDarkblade

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#10
Ah, yes. Agnes was a Goth in "Lords and Ladies", so for that kind of character, a name that means "lost" or "despair" makes perfect sense.

IIRC, she wanted her name to be "Perdita X Dream". Not much hope for the "Dream", though. She was probably stuck with the Nitt. ;)
 

Woofb

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Oct 24, 2021
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#13
Pterry seemed to have a mixed narrative relationship with Agnes. Although she was a great singer and a promising witch, Pterry never stopped making really cruel jokes about her weight over and over and over. We only needed to hear that she was overweight once in the beginning, but he'd keep up the little snide insults throughout. He did a similar thing with Sybil, although with a little bit more respect.

I think after CJ he had no more interest in her as a character in the main books. She doesn't show up in Wee Free Men or I Shall Wear Midnight, even though in the latter Nanny, Granny and Magrat are there. Was she in The Shepherd's Crown? If she was her presence wasn't particularly memorable.
I don’t think that’s quite the point he’s making.

All the witches except possibly Nanny Ogg have their own vulnerabilities. Magrat is a wet hen, perpetually aware of being junior and impractical. Granny monitors herself for signs of “going to the bad”, is aware of all the harsh choices she’s made, and is aware that people treat her with respect rather than affection.

Nanny was probably quite an attractive young woman. She’s not exactly slim, and probably never was. She flirts as easily as she speaks or moves _ She’s aware that she isn’t thin but it doesn’t bother her.

Agnes is aware she isn’t thin, and she hates it with the passion of a shy girl who’s been consistently undervalued for her entire adolescence. She’s aware her blush makes her look foolish in the eyes of anyone more self-confident (and Perdita).

Given this, she hates the hand she’s been dealt in life. To be girly in low-status little ways like keeping a collection of soft toys and saying “poot”. To be sensible and analytical while Perdita is her inner child and as such has all the fun. To see the ridiculous in things while aware that people see her as the butt of every possible joke.

To be aware that comments like “big hair and a wonderful personality” are shorthand for “too fat, but at least…” and “woman who takes up too much space in the world…”

it’s a sharply-delineated image of how women’s anger becomes inward-turned and painfully self-conscious, in a world like ours where mothers think not instantly calling a girl-child “beautiful” (not “pretty”, “kind”, “clever”, or “sensible”) is borderline child-abuse.

By the time of Carpe Jugulum she’s just about prepared to let that inner anger fuel her battle with the. vampires on shifting ground.
 

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