SPOILERS Corporal Cecil Wormsborough St. John "Nobby" Nobbs Character Discussion

Welcome to the Sir Terry Pratchett Forums
Register here for the Sir Terry Pratchett forum and message boards.
Sign up

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,841
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#1
Obviously last week's discussion of Fred Colon wouldn't be complete without his partner in crime (and against crime) Nobby Nobbs.

I used to find it odd in the books that Vimes would allow Nobby's petty crimes without kicking him out. It may be that I think stealing from comrades is despicable, and I don't altogether buy Pratchett's excuses. If he valued Nobby's skills (as they are) you'd think that punishing him would knock him into shape somewhat. But that said, Nobby shows signs of absolute genius on times - I'm thinking of the time he talked the armoury out of all their weapons . . . but then he goes and does something really stupid.

Look, I get that Nobby and Fred are basically the comic relief in a lot of the books and that Nobby is often the foil for Fred's bigotry, so I don't mind either of them being their to lighten the plot. But what do you all think?
 
#2
Sometimes, with Nobby, I think Vimes's opinion is "better to have him on the inside pissing out than on the outside pissing in". He knows it's a hard sell to stop Nobby from his petty crimes, which usually don't cause too much harm to anyone (a few dollars isn't going to hurt the Watch kitty or someone rich, but if Nobby robbed someone too poor to afford it, you can be sure that Vimes would crack down on *that*), and it's better that he remains in the Watch where Vimes can keep an eye on him, than to kick him out and risk him becoming an even worse criminal or public nuisance.

That being said, Nobby does undergo some level of self-discovery through the books, even if it's more of a personal than moral nature. He gets in touch with his feminine side (Jingo) and treads carefully through the dating scene (Thud!) and ends up showing a lot of sympathy towards goblins (Snuff), whilst still retaining his essential Nobby-ness. The little bit of backstory we see for him in Night Watch when he's a little kid also helps to understand a bit about where he's come from - absolute poverty, with a father who's also a petty thief - and so for someone like that to become the equivalent of a reasonable decent beat cop is a meteoric rise. He's never going to be a great detective, but being someone who can at least show that the Watch are out there and keeping an eye on the streets is not such a terrible thing.
 

RathDarkblade

Moderator
City Watch
Mar 24, 2015
16,002
3,400
47
Melbourne, Victoria
#3
I quite like Fred and Nobby's antics as the comic relief. I also like the way that Nobby demolishes Fred's casual racism in Jingo and Thud! (as well as other books? I forget). In the Colon-Nobby duo, Nobby is obviously smarter, and he also has enough brains not to show it too plainly.

I doubt very much that Nobby would ever have a meteoric rise. He almost had one in Feet of Clay, but he was smart enough to give it up, 'cos Vimes'd go spare! (Will you stop saying that!) :)

I agree with Molokov about why Vimes keeps Nobby around - and I'd add that Nobby's underhanded crimes are usually so obvious - taking the money from the kitty, leaving cigarette butts in the sugar bowl, taking leave for six grandmothers' funerals - that Vimes doesn't need to be a great detective to solve them. (Maybe that's another reason: it keeps Vimes's deductive skills sharp). :)

On the plus side, Nobby's got sharp eyesight and hearing; he's almost dwarf-like or goblin-like in that respect, which is ironic because the word "respect" doesn't usually feature in Nobby's vocabulary. ;) When he and Carrot go shaking hands with doorknobs in G!G!, it's not made clear whether Nobby makes use of lockpicks or not, but I wouldn't put it past him.

Also, unless Colon, Nobby's not usually the sort to accept the first explanation for something puzzling. But he goes along with Colon because Colon is the "superior civilian around here" - and also, it gives Nobby more time to write his report (badly) and then go boozing. ;)

Overall, I quite like Nobby - if only for the fact that it would be impossible to dislike him. Nobby reminds me a little of Dodger from his eponymous novel - he's razor-sharp and street-smart, although somehow I can't see Nobby rescuing a princess (or rescuing anyone, come to think of it). :)
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,126
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#4
Fred and Nobby serve as the Rosencranz and GIldenstern of the Watch novels: Episodic comic relief while the main characters are having a rest. I think Pterry often overused them. Their scenes in Thud are stultifyingly boring and add nothing to the plot (their "investigation" of the Rascal painting theft becomes little more than a forgotten report on Vimes' desk, and the endless discussions of Nobby's relationship with Tawnee are just dull). The whole Caine Mutiny subplot of The Fifth Elephant is a big-time waster. There could have been much betters way to show the Watch falling apart after Carrot abandoned it. I think the only time they're really used well as a pair is in Jingo, where they actually do things that at least advance Vetinari's role.
 

RathDarkblade

Moderator
City Watch
Mar 24, 2015
16,002
3,400
47
Melbourne, Victoria
#5
What about Colon and Nobby in FOC? There are times in FOC when they act as a pair (e.g. they both hear Meshuggah, the white golem, roar over the Bridge of Size after they go drinking, they are both in the office when Dorfl confesses to the murders, etc.)

Granted, both Colon and Nobby have their own scenes in FOC that also contribute to the plot - e.g. Nobby's scenes in the 'posh' houses where the monarchy was offered to him, and (much less pleasant) Colon's adventures in, under and over the candle factory. ;)
 

Terramax

Lance-Constable
Dec 27, 2018
18
1,000
#6
I used to find it odd in the books that Vimes would allow Nobby's petty crimes without kicking him out. It may be that I think stealing from comrades is despicable, and I don't altogether buy Pratchett's excuses.
Wonderful! I can talk about Discworld Noir here. *ahem*

Protagonist detective Lewton actually confronts Nobby about this head on. Watch from 21:11.

Now, although the majority of the story wasn`t written by Pratchett himself, he did obviously read the script and play through the whole game, and anything that he didn`t agree with was changed accordingly. Therefore, the fact that this conversation remains in the game is evidence enough that Pratchett considered it an acceptable explanation.

As for not kicking Nobby into shape, or out of the force, I think Vimes is on the air of `you can lead a horse to water, but you can`t make it drink.` Nobby isn`t likely, or even capable of changing his stripes, but on occassion his stupidity can be put into good use.
And he understands with the case of both Nobby and Colon that as long as you put them far from where there`s likely to be trouble of real significance, then they won`t cause much harm to anyone.

Furthermore, especially with regards to Nobby, Vimes probably figures that if he wasn`t in the watch he`d probably be causing even more mischief in Ankh Morpork. Better to be stealing tiny trinketts of no-importance which you can easily turn a blind eye to than having to constantly precious manpower and time ticking him off for the umpteenth time over.

And, honestly, I don`t think I would have enjoyed him as much if he had evolved into a capable personel for the watch.
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,126
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#7
Honestly, I doubt that Pterry went through every moment of a game script to make sure it aligned with canon, so I'd take anything that was said outside an actual DW book that he wrote with a grain of salt.

That said, it's kind of a cliche in police lore (or at least in police literature) that those in charge look the other way when street cops take bribes or steal things from crime scenes or evidence lockers. Nobby just happens to steal from the Watch. Vimes isn't concerned with the small crimes; it's the real criminals he wants to catch.

And Nobby isn't stupid. He's completely aware of Colon's investigative deficiencies and finds roundabout ways to question Colon's ineptness. And he can be completely capable in certain situations, as he was in Jingo or in his general ability to deliver intelligence from the street.
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,841
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#8
Nobby is a natural corporal. He has found his place - high enough to have power over recruits, without the responsibility of a sergeant. Even if he does think Colon might promote him in T5E, I have no doubt he would have made his way back to being a corporal
 

Dotsie

Sergeant-at-Arms
Jul 28, 2008
9,068
2,850
#9
I did wonder why Vimes might put up with Colon and Nobby, but there is the fact that they were the only ones left in the Watch when he was a useless drunk. You probably don't forget loyalty like that, and would maybe work around them being quite useless also.
 

RathDarkblade

Moderator
City Watch
Mar 24, 2015
16,002
3,400
47
Melbourne, Victoria
#10
There's also the fact that Colon and Nobby were in the Night Watch when Vimes was still a wet-behind-the-ears rookie (in NW), and stuck with him since then - about 30 years or so.

Colon was a corporal then, until Vimes/Keel promoted him to sergeant. I'm not sure how old Colon was then, but he was thinking of going into a regiment, so he might have been in his early 20s, perhaps? That would make him in his early 50s now.

Nobby was a smart and sharp street urchin, possibly in his early teens - maybe even 9 or 10. That would make him 39-40 now. But by the end of NW, Nobby has a policeman's helmet, and is carving himself a badge out of soap. He's also thinking of joining a regiment, 'cos he could nick himself lots of boots to sell. *G*

That's probably why Vimes put up with them: they're loyal and street-smart. (Anyone who's survived in A-M - especially the old A-M - for nearly 30 years has to be very street-smart indeed). :)
 

Terramax

Lance-Constable
Dec 27, 2018
18
1,000
#11
Honestly, I doubt that Pterry went through every moment of a game script to make sure it aligned with canon...
Apparently, he was the script editor and read just about everything. The game was co-written by Pratchett, though Chris Bateman, the lead writer, finds it hard to recall precisely what percentage of contributions were between the two of them.

Indeed, he may not have considered the game canon, but it's pretty clear that with the minor disagreements he did have, and changes that had to be made to accommodate (initial voices not sounding like how he imagined, names of characters having to be changed due to some being too cliched, etc), if he really took issue with what was said in the game, he would have definitely have made the neccessary changes.

But I get it. It probably wasn't as big a deal sto Sir Pratchett as other plot elements.

Regarding how long Nobby had been in the watch, and his loyalty, I do wonder how much Vimes would have allowed both he and Colon to have gotten away with.

Though as alluded to by others on here, Vimes has the ability to seek out the inner qualities of any person and knows there is always some kind of job in the watch that they can be useful at. Except vampires, of course. He knew, to a degree, the pair had their uses.

Also, I agree there were times the pair were used too liberally for comic relief. I liked the pair most when they were turning up where I least expected it. I read 'Reaper Man' for the first time this year, and Colon's minor inclusion was a pleasant surprise.
 
Likes: Tonyblack

=Tamar

Lieutenant
May 20, 2012
11,961
2,900
#12
Canon was not a big deal to Terry at first. He didn't bother to make the books consistent with each other until the fans started asking questions. Thief of Time was the ultimate get-out-of-it story, and I am of the opinion that even ToT doesn't explain everything away. Nobby is often the aware one, but sometimes he's the thick one and Colon is the one bringing him up to date.
 

RathDarkblade

Moderator
City Watch
Mar 24, 2015
16,002
3,400
47
Melbourne, Victoria
#13
Yes, I recall Terry saying that to start with, he didn't map out Ankh-Morpork. But eventually he had to, otherwise people would complain. :)

That's often the way when creating a new world: to start with, you pour out all your ideas, good and bad. You pick through them and eliminate the bad, and what's left is, hopefully, only good. But you don't bother about geography and so on, because so much of the map is still blank.

As more and more books come out, you start realising that - whoops - the map is filling up. That's when you need a map. Luckily, Terry met Stephen Briggs. The rest is (hilarious) history. :)
 

RathDarkblade

Moderator
City Watch
Mar 24, 2015
16,002
3,400
47
Melbourne, Victoria
#15
*LOL!* That only happens if the author writes fan-fiction. :)

When I started writing, many (many) years ago, I started with fan-fiction, because it was easier - both for me and for the readers - to imagine the characters. Even though it was "only" fan-fiction, though, it taught me a lot about characterisation, plot, description, dialogue etc. - but I won't pretend it "made" me an author. It was a start, not the end. ;)

The next step - a harder one - was letting go of most of the bad habits I learned while writing fan-fiction. Some of these included not using so many adverbs, letting go of words like "and" and "but" (or at least fewer of them), etc. Other lessons were learning to use beat sheets, learning to outline a story, learning how to critique. I learned a lot of things in the past few years; I don't plan to ever stop learning. ;)

Mapping out a story's hard enough. Creating an actual map? Harder still, especially if (like me) you're not an illustrator.

The next lesson? Possibly the hardest of all ... publishing. Traditional vs. e-publishing vs. indie? If traditional, which agent? The answer's not easy to find ...:confused:
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,841
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#17
I've read some fan fiction before now - some of it better than others (obviously), but none that have really caught my attention and these days I really can't be bothered. It's a bit like playing with someone else's toys.
 

RathDarkblade

Moderator
City Watch
Mar 24, 2015
16,002
3,400
47
Melbourne, Victoria
#18
Raisin, Tony, I agree. :) All I can say in my defense are two things:

a) I started writing fan-fiction when I finished high school, about 25 years ago (1994 or so). The internet was still in its infancy, not many people were writing it, and the fan-fiction I read was very well-written.

b) I definitely asked for permission - and got it - before I ever set quill to parchment. ;)

But as I said, I agree. Some fan-fiction (CoughTwilightCough) is execrable. Other fan-fiction (CoughFiftyShadesCough) is utter codswallop.

As for me, I never took fan-fiction very seriously - more as a writing exercise, to teach myself what worked and what didn't. As I went along, I got some advice from readers and teachers, and saw my writing gradually improve. :)

I also read plenty of fan-fiction that is not just well-written, but the authors went on to write other things and publish them. So ... takes all sorts to make a world. Diff'rent strokes, it takes ... ahem. :)
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,126
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#19
As a professional writer, one piece of advice I often give to those entering the profession is the exact opposite of the most common piece of advice.

Write what you don't know.
 

User Menu

Newsletter