SPOILERS Interesting Times Discussion **Spoilers**
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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I liked this book in a tepid sort of way but it was adisappointing return for Twoflower, who I really liked in COM & LF. For a wandering Rincewind adventure, this really has nothing on The Last Continent so I tend to agree with Sharlene on this. I've read it twice so I can't put it down to a bad first impression.
Well, this post sums up the major criticisms of this book far better than I could.
I did enjoy rereading this one a great deal though. The humour is Pterry at his best and I got a lot of laughs from it (and a new sig
). I think this may be one of those cases where too much analysis, however accurate and well reasoned, may end up detracting from the enjoyment of the book.
I wonder what happened to Bethan...
I did enjoy rereading this one a great deal though. The humour is Pterry at his best and I got a lot of laughs from it (and a new sig
). I think this may be one of those cases where too much analysis, however accurate and well reasoned, may end up detracting from the enjoyment of the book. I wonder what happened to Bethan...
A few thoughts now I've finished it, in no particular order....
I loved the concept of Teach showing the Barbarians civilisation and the scene with the Apple seller was very funny. I had no problem with believing the Silver Horde. They, by the end, were sure they were going to die so it's not as though they believed they were capable of defeating an army either.
I would have liked to have found out more about Twoflower. His naivity and eternal optimism became more fascinting when we read about his wife's death and his daughters in the rebel cadre. You wonder whether his personality is a defence mechanism of some sort. Certainly he is demystified to an extent, but I'd have liked to have heard more about his past.
Rincewind, I have found to be less annoying with each book. Colour of Magic he was weasly and not very likeable character, Light Fantastic his relationship with Twoflower shows some complexity and humanity, by Sourcery he seems to have become more believable as a reluctant hero: every bone in his body tells him to run but he still confronts the Sourcerer with his brick in a sock! I think that's admirable. And by Interesting Times he has a very hard time convincing himself things are other people's problems, and seems to take to the rebel cadre and even at points seems to be a mentor to them; albeit a reluctant one. It's sad that the rebel cadre seem to understand civilisation as little as the barbarians, and that's a point I would have liked to have been highlighted more.
Perhaps the biggest problem I had with the story is that the ending is given away very early on!! It was obvious the canon would make a reappearance to suddenly kill off the bad guy (in fact, it seems odd that we could guess how he would die before he'd really been properly introduced!). I kept waiting for the canon to be remagicked back to the Counterweight continent. I think this was a much clumsier version of the Small Gods ending in some ways (though I won't say anymore about that in case some haven't read that particular masterpiece). Both were seeded early on in the book but in Interesting Times you could see it coming early on, whilst in Small Gods it was shocking and more than that, symbolic.
Oh, and another thing to add to Pooh's Japanese list. The underground SNES Rincewind found. The icons on the gloves reminded me of the old Lemmings Game on the PC. You clicked an icon and they all digged and carried on digging till you tell them to stop, you clicked another and they all pickaxed etc.. In another, wonderful way it reminded me of Knightmare...one of the best kids' programmes ever. 8)
I quite liked this book, not one of my faves but certainly not the worst in the series. Having said that, I'm finding the Wizard books harder to get into than the Witch or Watch books...Last Continent next up.
I loved the concept of Teach showing the Barbarians civilisation and the scene with the Apple seller was very funny. I had no problem with believing the Silver Horde. They, by the end, were sure they were going to die so it's not as though they believed they were capable of defeating an army either.
I would have liked to have found out more about Twoflower. His naivity and eternal optimism became more fascinting when we read about his wife's death and his daughters in the rebel cadre. You wonder whether his personality is a defence mechanism of some sort. Certainly he is demystified to an extent, but I'd have liked to have heard more about his past.
Rincewind, I have found to be less annoying with each book. Colour of Magic he was weasly and not very likeable character, Light Fantastic his relationship with Twoflower shows some complexity and humanity, by Sourcery he seems to have become more believable as a reluctant hero: every bone in his body tells him to run but he still confronts the Sourcerer with his brick in a sock! I think that's admirable. And by Interesting Times he has a very hard time convincing himself things are other people's problems, and seems to take to the rebel cadre and even at points seems to be a mentor to them; albeit a reluctant one. It's sad that the rebel cadre seem to understand civilisation as little as the barbarians, and that's a point I would have liked to have been highlighted more.
Perhaps the biggest problem I had with the story is that the ending is given away very early on!! It was obvious the canon would make a reappearance to suddenly kill off the bad guy (in fact, it seems odd that we could guess how he would die before he'd really been properly introduced!). I kept waiting for the canon to be remagicked back to the Counterweight continent. I think this was a much clumsier version of the Small Gods ending in some ways (though I won't say anymore about that in case some haven't read that particular masterpiece). Both were seeded early on in the book but in Interesting Times you could see it coming early on, whilst in Small Gods it was shocking and more than that, symbolic.
Oh, and another thing to add to Pooh's Japanese list. The underground SNES Rincewind found. The icons on the gloves reminded me of the old Lemmings Game on the PC. You clicked an icon and they all digged and carried on digging till you tell them to stop, you clicked another and they all pickaxed etc.. In another, wonderful way it reminded me of Knightmare...one of the best kids' programmes ever. 8)
I quite liked this book, not one of my faves but certainly not the worst in the series. Having said that, I'm finding the Wizard books harder to get into than the Witch or Watch books...Last Continent next up.
this book is one of my fave books i can re-read it over and over again.
one thing that i have wondered if anyone else has thought about is the possibility that the horde was based on the seven samurai? which is Japanese, and there a 7 members of the horde including teach, however i don't really know very much about the seven samurai.
'the ever present fear of death'
'oh so you've been a teacher then?'
one thing that i have wondered if anyone else has thought about is the possibility that the horde was based on the seven samurai? which is Japanese, and there a 7 members of the horde including teach, however i don't really know very much about the seven samurai.
'the ever present fear of death'
'oh so you've been a teacher then?'
nom* said:
this book is one of my fave books i can re-read it over and over again.
one thing that i have wondered if anyone else has thought about is the possibility that the horde was based on the seven samurai? which is Japanese, and there a 7 members of the horde including teach, however i don't really know very much about the seven samurai.
'the ever present fear of death'
'oh so you've been a teacher then?'
one thing that i have wondered if anyone else has thought about is the possibility that the horde was based on the seven samurai? which is Japanese, and there a 7 members of the horde including teach, however i don't really know very much about the seven samurai.
'the ever present fear of death'
'oh so you've been a teacher then?'
Very interesting idea, i can definately see where you are coming from, even though I'm still yet to to see Seven Samurai and Magnificent Seven...though I have seen Three Amigos.
Welcome to the site, nom*!
I have seen both Seven Samurai and The Magnificent Seven (which is a remake of Seven Samurai), also Battle Beyond the Stars (which is a remake set in space) and, while I can see some connections with Interesting Times, - they are all skilled warriors and there are seven of them - I can't really see any other connection.
In the three movies mentioned above, the 'seven' were hired by poor villagers to protect them from bandits. In Interesting Times the seven are very much working for their own interests.
I have seen both Seven Samurai and The Magnificent Seven (which is a remake of Seven Samurai), also Battle Beyond the Stars (which is a remake set in space) and, while I can see some connections with Interesting Times, - they are all skilled warriors and there are seven of them - I can't really see any other connection.
In the three movies mentioned above, the 'seven' were hired by poor villagers to protect them from bandits. In Interesting Times the seven are very much working for their own interests.
Tonyblack said:
I have seen both Seven Samurai and The Magnificent Seven (which is a remake of Seven Samurai), also Battle Beyond the Stars (which is a remake set in space) and, while I can see some connections with Interesting Times, - they are all skilled warriors and there are seven of them - I can't really see any other connection.
In the three movies mentioned above, the 'seven' were hired by poor villagers to protect them from bandits. In Interesting Times the seven are very much working for their own interests.
In the three movies mentioned above, the 'seven' were hired by poor villagers to protect them from bandits. In Interesting Times the seven are very much working for their own interests.
I had not think of it, and TP already mentioned them in Lords and Ladies, so maybe he likes it and took the idea of 7 people against an army Ok I know this is an old discussion, but I'm re-reading IT now and I saw this bit
and I thought : this makes me understand how little he knows Vetinari, because that's not like Vetinari at all, to me. I imagine him giving a casual glance at the board, maybe work at his desk some time in a 'first the work than the play'-style, then casually strode towards the board and make his move barely looking at what he's doing, and then going back to work, maybe keeping talking to someone on something completely different...
did we ever see him playing anything ? (aside from the crosswords, I remember that clearly)
and: 'yes, poor man, he thought himself so clever, didn't he?' is what I imagine Vetinari thinking of Hong
Terry has definitely used the Magnificent Seven imagery, usually when describing someone holding a hat or equivalent in the 'ai senor, bandits have attacked our village" position. I'm wondering whether Rincewind counts, making it the Magnificent Seven-A.
By the way, as I understand it, Terry doesn't play spot the reference. He just writes. We play spot the reference. When we see one, that means we have understood another layer of meaning.
By the way, as I understand it, Terry doesn't play spot the reference. He just writes. We play spot the reference. When we see one, that means we have understood another layer of meaning.
Yes, we know Vetinari plays Thud because that was his official motive for starting up the Post Office again. The Clacks downtime was interfering with his long-distance Thud game. His other motives were not given but can be inferred.
I agree that Hong totally misunderstood Vetinari. Vetinari thinks much faster than that!
I agree that Hong totally misunderstood Vetinari. Vetinari thinks much faster than that!
Sorry to raise this thread from the dead (nearly 10 years on), but I had a few thoughts about this book ... finally ...
Firstly, about this from swreader:
That's the tragedy. The Red Guard of the Cultural Revolution were far worse than merely "less than effective" - they were very effective at carrying out Mao's orders, and thus plunged China into anarchy. One example of this was how Chinese teachers were beaten up - sometimes at the whim of immature students - and tied up, kicked, and forced to confess their "crimes" of teaching about China's past.
Another example was when doctors or surgeons were forced to exchange places with farmers or cleaners who emptied out bedpans in hospitals - the apparent reason, according to Mao's teachings, being to "teach" doctors and surgeons not to despise manual labour. The obvious downside of this was that while surgeons emptied bedpans or tilled the fields, suddenly the cleaners and farmers were asked -- without training -- to perform surgery. Such stories are endless.
As for people who paste up very-polite-but-not-effective slogans -- I think Terry was rather thinking of Weisse Rose, the student-led anti-Hitler group. Granted, the members of Weisse Rose are very different (and much more admirable) than the Red Army - but yet, they have one similarity: they both printed and distributed pamphlets and books critical of their own regime, with the most extreme danger if/when caught. And that's it - I don't think they can be compared in any other way.
=====================
Secondly, I've just been listening to Nigel Planer reading "Interesting Times" again, and started thinking: why "urinating dog" (as a substitute for exclamation mark)? Is there any logical reason, or is it simply because of The Rule Of Funny?
I also started thinking about Lord Hong and his longed-for chess match with Lord Vetinari. I've played chess for nearly 40 years, so I thought of how the match might go. (Of course, these days Vetinari probably favours Thud).
Unfortunately for Lord Hong, the Agatean Army has millions of "ordinary" soldiers; but in chess, you only have 8 (the pawns). So it seems fairly clear that Lord Hong would never stand a chance against Lord Vetinari. Here's what's likely to happen:
Hong starts strong, sacrificing one pawn and then another -- what do pawns matter? -- and rushes his pieces forward checkmate Vetinari. He has a strong attack.
However, Vetinari takes the pawns if it is safe to do so. He defends carefully, neutralises the attack, exchanges off pieces to simplify the position, and then wins easily with his extra pawns (which run down the board to become queens).
Does that sound like Hong and Vetinari to anyone else?
Firstly, about this from swreader:
That's the tragedy. The Red Guard of the Cultural Revolution were far worse than merely "less than effective" - they were very effective at carrying out Mao's orders, and thus plunged China into anarchy.
One example of this was how Chinese teachers were beaten up - sometimes at the whim of immature students - and tied up, kicked, and forced to confess their "crimes" of teaching about China's past.Another example was when doctors or surgeons were forced to exchange places with farmers or cleaners who emptied out bedpans in hospitals - the apparent reason, according to Mao's teachings, being to "teach" doctors and surgeons not to despise manual labour. The obvious downside of this was that while surgeons emptied bedpans or tilled the fields, suddenly the cleaners and farmers were asked -- without training -- to perform surgery.
Such stories are endless.As for people who paste up very-polite-but-not-effective slogans -- I think Terry was rather thinking of Weisse Rose, the student-led anti-Hitler group. Granted, the members of Weisse Rose are very different (and much more admirable) than the Red Army - but yet, they have one similarity: they both printed and distributed pamphlets and books critical of their own regime, with the most extreme danger if/when caught. And that's it - I don't think they can be compared in any other way.
=====================
Secondly, I've just been listening to Nigel Planer reading "Interesting Times" again, and started thinking: why "urinating dog" (as a substitute for exclamation mark)? Is there any logical reason, or is it simply because of The Rule Of Funny?
I also started thinking about Lord Hong and his longed-for chess match with Lord Vetinari. I've played chess for nearly 40 years, so I thought of how the match might go. (Of course, these days Vetinari probably favours Thud).
Unfortunately for Lord Hong, the Agatean Army has millions of "ordinary" soldiers; but in chess, you only have 8 (the pawns). So it seems fairly clear that Lord Hong would never stand a chance against Lord Vetinari.
Here's what's likely to happen:Hong starts strong, sacrificing one pawn and then another -- what do pawns matter? -- and rushes his pieces forward checkmate Vetinari. He has a strong attack.
However, Vetinari takes the pawns if it is safe to do so. He defends carefully, neutralises the attack, exchanges off pieces to simplify the position, and then wins easily with his extra pawns (which run down the board to become queens).
Does that sound like Hong and Vetinari to anyone else?
