SPOILERS Moving Pictures Discussion **Spoilers**

[raptornx01]

It wasn't killed or permanently disposed of. i think ? is right. seemed like the traditional "The End?" tag. Which fits with the subject matter

 

[Anonymous]

true.
But you have to admit, the idea of things from the dungeon dimension being able to latch onto being of great thaumaturgical value has its interesting aspects

 

[raisindot]

Having mentioned the Dungeon Dimensions, for me this is the last really meaningful time that they feature in a DW book (I don't really count Eric as it's more to do with demonology ), after this Terry's excursions into magical nemesis gets more focussed on Dragons and Elves et al for a better class of antagonist. Do you think this is because he ran out steam for trans-dimensional monsters in this book?

Both Guards! Guards! and Eric came out before MP, so, yes, you're right that the DD make their swan song here, even though he was introducing dragons during this period.

But I don't think Pterry ran out of steam with the DD idea, which was never particularly interesting in itself. I think that after MP he consciously or subconsiously decided to move forward from the "roundworld parody" approach of most of the early books into much deeper and more complex narrative territory. Look at what immediately followed--Reaper Man, Witches Abroad, and (the real turning point) Small Gods, each of which featuring far more interesting ideas. The dogmatic dungeons of Omnia and Alison Weatherwax's mirror universe hold far more compelling terrors...

 

[Tonyblack]

So . . .

Anyone care to name any of the movies, or movie references used in the book?

I'll start off with The Seventh Seal, the Swedish film by Ingmar Bergman, which has a scene of Death standing on a beach.

 

[raptornx01]

Thats also the movie where Death is famously challenged to a game of chess, is it not?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Having mentioned the Dungeon Dimensions, for me this is the last really meaningful time that they feature in a DW book (I don't really count Eric as it's more to do with demonology ), after this Terry's excursions into magical nemesis gets more focussed on Dragons and Elves et al for a better class of antagonist. Do you think this is because he ran out steam for trans-dimensional monsters in this book?

Both Guards! Guards! and Eric came out before MP, so, yes, you're right that the DD make their swan song here, even though he was introducing dragons during this period.

But I don't think Pterry ran out of steam with the DD idea, which was never particularly interesting in itself. I think that after MP he consciously or subconsiously decided to move forward from the "roundworld parody" approach of most of the early books into much deeper and more complex narrative territory. Look at what immediately followed--Reaper Man, Witches Abroad, and (the real turning point) Small Gods, each of which featuring far more interesting ideas. The dogmatic dungeons of Omnia and Alison Weatherwax's mirror universe hold far more compelling terrors...

Surely the Roundworld parodies became even stronger? - from Wyrd Sisters onwards Terry deliberately chooses facets of Roundworld culture unconnected with fantasy genres (which are parodied to death in the early books and of course DO run out of steam as Discworld acquires it's own 'gravitas' :twisted: ). In Wyrd Sisters it's theatre/Shakespearean themes and in Soul Music rock and roll; Small Gods jihad/theocracies and police drama for the Watch series of course.

I like the whole series of silent movie piss-takes especially with the screen idol Rudolph Valentino and 'it' girl Theda Bara stereotypes being played for all they're worth moving into Errol Flynn and Clark Gable, Jean Harlow and Vivien Leigh with Ginger gradually getting less 'langourous' and more styled and hyped as they went as they get into talkies. I also quite like how Terry turns the silver screen on its head to some extent since colour comes quite early on (I think - I actually haven't had time to reread the book yet)?

 

[Tonyblack]

Thats also the movie where Death is famously challenged to a game of chess, is it not?

That's the one.

 

[raptornx01]

Having mentioned the Dungeon Dimensions, for me this is the last really meaningful time that they feature in a DW book (I don't really count Eric as it's more to do with demonology ), after this Terry's excursions into magical nemesis gets more focussed on Dragons and Elves et al for a better class of antagonist. Do you think this is because he ran out steam for trans-dimensional monsters in this book?

Both Guards! Guards! and Eric came out before MP, so, yes, you're right that the DD make their swan song here, even though he was introducing dragons during this period.

But I don't think Pterry ran out of steam with the DD idea, which was never particularly interesting in itself. I think that after MP he consciously or subconsiously decided to move forward from the "roundworld parody" approach of most of the early books into much deeper and more complex narrative territory. Look at what immediately followed--Reaper Man, Witches Abroad, and (the real turning point) Small Gods, each of which featuring far more interesting ideas. The dogmatic dungeons of Omnia and Alison Weatherwax's mirror universe hold far more compelling terrors...

Surely the Roundworld parodies became even stronger? - from Wyrd Sisters onwards Terry deliberately chooses facets of Roundworld culture unconnected with fantasy genres (which are parodied to death in the early books and of course DO run out of steam as Discworld acquires it's own 'gravitas' :twisted: ). In Wyrd Sisters it's theatre/Shakespearean themes and in Soul Music rock and roll; Small Gods jihad/theocracies and police drama for the Watch series of course.

I like the whole series of silent movie piss-takes especially with the screen idol Rudolph Valentino and 'it' girl Theda Bara stereotypes being played for all they're worth moving into Errol Flynn and Clark Gable, Jean Harlow and Vivien Leigh with Ginger gradually getting less 'langourous' and more styled and hyped as they went as they get into talkies. I also quite like how Terry turns the silver screen on its head to some extent since colour comes quite early on (I think - I actually haven't had time to reread the book yet)?

That happened with soul music as well. its focus was rock but overall they kinda of ran through the whole of modern music history, and rather quickly. starting with folk and moving through the styles (and having other genres poping up like soul, r&b and rap with the dwarfs and metal with that side band that couldn't decide on a name). they played with that alot in the animated series. each song changing styles till it got to "The Messenger" which is the most modern style (at that point).

only with MP he didn't really move past the golden age of hollywood. unless you consider the end, after the creatures come out of the screen, as representing big budget summer spectacle films that started in the 70's.

 

[=Tamar]

My impression was its all one thing. all of it came from one source. the thing the guardian was holding back. When the ceremonies the watchers were doing stopped after the last one died it all started to leak out. a little bit at first, then more and more as the door opened wider.

I'm not sure it's all the same thing. First came the wild idea, the idea of the clicks. Then the rest of the energy beings came through, and there was more than one shape behind that screen. They were probably similar, all DD monsters, but the forms were given them by the people who made the clicks their own. The monster had to obey the magic of the clicks, too. What if they had only continued to make little educational filmstrips? Would there have been a monstrous living potter's wheel?

The most obvious film reference that hasn't been mentioned yet is the sequence of Mack Sennet's Keystone Kops episodes, complete with the last one chasing behind the overloaded car.

 

[raptornx01]

I'm not sure it's all the same thing. First came the wild idea, the idea of the clicks. Then the rest of the energy beings came through, and there was more than one shape behind that screen. They were probably similar, all DD monsters, but the forms were given them by the people who made the clicks their own. The monster had to obey the magic of the clicks, too. What if they had only continued to make little educational filmstrips? Would there have been a monstrous living potter's wheel?

I don't consider the TFTDD to be a part of it. they were a side effect. They just took advantage of an opportunity that was presented. sure the fact of the click magic dictated their form, as it was that that gave them a portal to the disc, but they weren't a part OF that magic.

What she was saying, at least it seemed that way to me, was there may have been more then one part of the click magic. IE, the part giving people ideas, and the part that got released when the door finally opened, were two different things. both still click magic, but still two different "spirits of holy wood"

 

[=Tamar]

First came the wild idea, the idea of the clicks. Then the rest of the energy beings came through, and there was more than one shape behind that screen. They were probably similar, all DD monsters, but the forms were given them by the people who made the clicks their own. The monster had to obey the magic of the clicks, too. What if they had only continued to make little educational filmstrips? Would there have been a monstrous living potter's wheel?

I don't consider the TFTDD to be a part of it. they were a side effect. They just took advantage of an opportunity that was presented. sure the fact of the click magic dictated their form, as it was that that gave them a portal to the disc, but they weren't a part OF that magic.

Are you saying that if the TFTDD hadn't been clustering waiting for a chance to get through, something else would have animated the larger-than-life figures on the screen? Possibly beings of pure glamour? That would be a very interesting concept, glamour itself as a monster. The original Hollywood glamour did wind up pretty much destroyed, after having destroyed quite a few people.

What she was saying, at least it seemed that way to me, was there may have been more then one part of the click magic. IE, the part giving people ideas, and the part that got released when the door finally opened, were two different things. both still click magic, but still two different "spirits of holy wood"

I read her question as asking about that, not stating that as a given. However, it does seem to me that there are two parts. The first part is the wild idea, which is independent of the TFTDD that come through later. The clicks themselves are not intrinsically bad as an idea; the problem was the connection to the energies hidden in Holy Wood.

More film allusions: Casablanca, enacted by Ruby and Detritus. Cartoons, enacted by the animals on the hillside. I'm not sure whether the duck is Daffy or Donald, but most likely it's early Donald because he was totally inarticulate at first. The cat and mouse remind me of Tom and Jerry.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Yes I thought Tom and Jerry too and I think you're right about Donald morphing into Daffy too. I do have a fairly strong feeling that Terry tried to avoid putting too much of the 'Disney influence' into the story however - hence the mouse is definitely Jerry and not Mickey which is why the Looney Tunes theme is there more predominantly? :twisted: In fact that's virtually the first real satirical gag with the 'That's all Folks' ending to the first screening night at the Alchemist's Guild and even before they start with the banged grains...

I'm a little perturbed at Terry's seeming reluctance to lampoon Disney - he doesn't shy away from too much controversy ordinarily, but perhaps he's saving that rich cultural vein that for a 'theme park' or corporate blood-sucking parody?

 

[Dotsie]

I wasn't a big fan of MP when I first read it, as I found the references a bit cheesy (although not as bad as Soul Music, which I've only ever read once), and Gaspode was just irritating. On re-reading though it did grow on me, although I still prefer the later incarnations of the wonder dog.

I can't really remember much right now, but wasn't there a War of the Worlds reference?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Did someone mention War of the Worlds? It's in the narrative rather than as an Holy Wood scene and it's a parody of 'the chances of anything coming from Mars' bit

Dibbler does a Gene Kelly from Singin' in the Rain when he goes to AM to advertise Sworde of Passione and in one of Ginger's Holy Wood dreams she's doing the Marilyn Monroe skirt scene from The Seven Year Itch

 

[Tonyblack]

Dibbler does a Gene Kelly from Singin' in the Rain when he goes to AM to advertise Sworde of Passione

I love that scene!

I also always love the sub plot with the 10,000 elephants.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

The running gag for the Cecile B. De Mille style epic movies are just wonderful, especially when the idea of 10,000 elephants are taken literally

The whole ambiance of the dodgy commissary and 'actors are cheap' attitude at the beginning of the book does make some more serious but still funny swipes in a kind of Day of the Locust type way - how the 'little people' were treated as meaningless dross in the early days of Hollywood and how you were nothing if you're not in the clicks (I'm just reading the bit where Ginger has the hump with Victor after Silverfish fires them for taking a lunch break )

 

[raptornx01]

Sometimes i wonder if hollywood wouldn't be better off going back to that

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Still on the subject of old movies but going right back to the wizard finals - was anyone else reminded of the Doctor in the House films with the perennial student doctor Grimsdyke who had his allowance paid for him whilst he was in training so he just kept flunking the exams?

Appreciate this might be lost on non-Brit peeps as this is a v. old movie starring Dirk Bogarde but there was another famous actor in that same film called James Robertson Justice who I think is an even better blueprint for Ridcully than St. Brian the Blessed

 

[=Tamar]

Still on the subject of old movies but going right back to the wizard finals - was anyone else reminded of the Doctor in the House films with the perennial student doctor Grimsdyke who had his allowance paid for him whilst he was in training so he just kept flunking the exams?

So there's yet another one! Gordon's novel came out in 1952, movie 1954.
There was a perennial student (Fred Cassidy) in Roger Zelazny's 1975 story, Doorways in the Sand (serialized in 1975, printed in hardcover 1976). But I'm not quite sure whether I also came across that element in a Wodehouse story. Neither of which proves anything, as I know I've found virtually identical structures in very different stories across genres, and the authors probably had no idea that the basic structure had been used elsewhere.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

But Doctor in the House was one of the biggest grossing UK films in the mid-Fifties which was also very much about the right time for a pre-teen Pratchett to have caught it at his local cinema club perhaps (all the big picture house chains (the Odeon/Odium and ABC minors especially) over here had Saturday morning clubs sessions to catch the upcoming film-going audience early) or been to a matinee perhaps?

It also got shown to death on TV in 60s and 70s and a v. popular TV comedy adaptation spin off was shown then as well so with Pterry's magpie addiction to popular culture there's every reason to suppose he knew it quite well...