Nation - No plot spoilers

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm ... Nation and Dodger are two very different stories, but I can see why TP was proud of it. It is difficult to get into the head of any character - i.e. to think as he/she thinks, say what he/she would say etc. It's doubly-difficult when the character and the author have nothing in common - i.e. no cultural/racial/class background, etc.

Of course it would be difficult for TP to get into the POV of any character in Dodger - after all, 19th-century people didn't think about life as we do, because life was very different then, and much harder. But for all that, TP shared a cultural background with many of the characters in the book. So it'd have been easier for him to think like - for instance - Charlie Dickens, or Henry Mayhew, than to think like Mau.

I hope this isn't coming across as offensive. All I'm saying is that birds of a feather think about similar things. After all, bankers think and talk about banking, lawyers and politicians about the law, plumbers about plumbing and so on.

Similarly, TP would have found it easy to think like Dickens because they were both journalists (albeit at different times). But how do you begin to think like a teenager who has lost everything? Especially on a far-away continent that hadn't been explored yet? Yes, that is a challenge. TP would have had to create the culture of Mau's tribe, then re-create it for Mau specifically, and then re-create it again when Daphne and Mau begin to work together.

So for all these reasons, I'm not surprised Terry was proud of this book. He had much to be proud of.

 

[=Tamar]

If Dodger is in the same alternate universe as Nation, is it a prequel or a sequel? I don't remember and the book is not to hand: Dodger meets the queen, right? Is she the queen who ruled before Nation, or after?

 

[Tonyblack]

I don't believe Nation and Dodger are in the same universe. It's more that they are two stand alone books by Terry in a limited timeline to Terry's writing.

Nation is an argument between Science and Religion. Dodger seems to be based more on the writing of Henry Mayhew, who seems to have had a somewhat profound influence of Sir Terry's writings. While Mayhew was writing about the poor people of London, Terry also seems to have used some of these thoughts and feelings in his books about Ankh-Morpork.

Nation is, I feel, the stronger book. Mau is a far better character than Dodger. Sir Terry seems to have been writing more of a history of the people of London with Dodger, whereas Nation is more to do with an exploration that turns religion upside down in relation to Science.

 

[RathDarkblade]

If Dodger is in the same alternate universe as Nation, is it a prequel or a sequel? I don't remember and the book is not to hand: Dodger meets the queen, right? Is she the queen who ruled before Nation, or after?

*grabs his own copy, does some quick research* Let's see. Sir Robert Peel also appears in the story, and the real-life Peel passed away in 1850. So the story of Dodger must have happened before that.

Henry Mayhew is making notes for his book, "London Labour and the London Poor" (published 1851). Dodger gets his picture engraved in Punch Magazine (which Mayhew founded in 1841). Both of these fit the time-line.

Lastly, Charles Dickens is working for []The Morning Chronicle[/i] in Fleet Street. In real life, Dickens began reporting for the Chronicle in 1834.

Dodger meets a young-ish Queen Victoria (pg. 346 mentions her as a "young queen"), and she introduces him to Prince Albert - although there is no mention of him as the Prince Consort (Albert became Consort on 25 June 1857).

Victoria became Queen (and moved to Buckingham Palace) in 1837. She married Albert in February 1840, and they had their first child in November 1840. (Note: there are no kids around when Dodger meets the Queen).

We can assume the meeting takes place in Buckingham Palace, because Albert mentions the "terrible trouble" with the drains. At the time, Buck House was in a state of terrible repair; notwithstanding the drains, the chimneys choked the rooms, and some windows wouldn't shut.

Anyway ... (drumroll) ... since we meet Victoria and Albert together, and in Buck House, we can assume they are married. There are no kids around, so we can also assume Victoria's first child hadn't been born yet. Therefore, the story must be set at some point between February 1840 (Vic & Albert's wedding) and November 1840 (birth of their first child). Queen Victoria would have been 21 then, so definitely "young"!

One last point: there is no mention of cold or snow, which helps narrow down the season. The likeliest time, therefore, would be between 1 April and 30 August (early spring to late summer) of 1840.

Sorry for all the details. I hope they weren't boring! *blush*
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As for whether "Dodger" and "Nation" are set in the same time, historically ... that's harder to ascertain. We are never told where Mau's island is, but I think it's safe to assume that it's somewhere in Polynesia.

Why Polynesia? The mention of rum immediately indicates the Caribbean, but that region would've been well-known by Queen Victoria's time.

Perhaps an island off Africa? Maybe. The biggest candidate is Madagascar, which is too large for Mau's island. So it may be one of the Cape Verde islands of the northwest coast of Africa. (It certainly can't be one of the bigger islands like Madagascar, Seychelles, Comoros, Mauritius or the Maldives, because all of these were occupied by Europeans by the 19th century).

What we're looking for is a small island, somewhere in the Western Indian ocean, that was still unknown to Europeans (and Asians) by the early-to-mid-19th century. At first this seems like an impossible task, but I believe I've narrowed it down to three "influential" candidates -- which I will list in order of likelihood:

3. Khuriya Muriya Islands.
Pro: In 1854, the sultan of Muscat (later Muscat and Oman, now Oman) presented the islands to Queen Victoria as a gift and responsibility for the islands was granted to the Bombay government in British India.

There may be echoes of this in the meeting between the English settlers and the natives of Mau's island.

Con: These islands were known to the ancient Greeks. There's no way they could've been unobserved natives as late as the 19th century.

2. Mayotte Island.
Pro: In the 1830s, this island was a scene to several wars between Madagascar and Mwali. This might be an echo of the wars that Mau's people faced.
Con: This island was known as early as 1500s to Portuguese explorers (though not settled).

1. Mafia Island.
Pro: In the mid-1820s, the town of Kua on Juani Island was attacked by Sakalava cannibals arriving from Madagascar with 80 canoes, who ate many of the locals and took the rest into slavery.

There are definite echoes of the destruction of Mau's village here. He returns, and there is no-one around. Where did they go?

The two big holes in this hypothesis, of course, is that there are no bodies or survivors. Furthermore, Mau's village is destroyed by a tidal wave, not an invasion. But I'm not trying to draw direct parallels.

Con: Mafia Island is mentioned at least as early as the 8th century. The island once played a major role in ancient trade between the people of East Asia and East Africa. It was a regular stop for Arab boats.
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In conclusion, none of these are Mau's island - but they may have influenced the way that TP created the island. What do you think?

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Alien's

 

[=Tamar]

*grabs his own copy, does some quick research* Let's see. Sir Robert Peel ..... Henry Mayhew .... Lastly, Charles Dickens...
Dodger meets a young-ish Queen Victoria... She married Albert in February 1840, and they had their first child in November 1840. (Note: there are no kids around when Dodger meets the Queen).
... between February 1840 (Vic & Albert's wedding) and November 1840 (birth of their first child). ... no mention of cold or snow, .... likeliest time, therefore, would be between 1 April and 30 August (early spring to late summer) of 1840.
Sorry for all the details. I hope they weren't boring! *blush*

Not boring at all! They were fascinating. That gives a remarkably precise date for Dodger.

As for whether "Dodger" and "Nation" are set in the same time, historically ... that's harder to ascertain. ..... In conclusion, none of these are Mau's island - but they may have influenced the way that TP created the island. What do you think?

Wow. That's seriously impressive research. I'm pretty sure they influenced TP's work. The only reason I thought they might be in the same universe was a published statement somewhere that TP was working on a novel in the same universe as Nation. I should have known that nobody could ever predict what his next novel would be about. While Dodger is sort of in our universe but probably is in a different one, Nation definitely isn't in our universe.
Thanks for all your work!

 

[Molokov]

I'm pretty sure somewhere (in an interview or something) that Terry acknowledged that there's a bit of broken chronology in Dodger - i.e. that the parts with the real historical figures don't quite line up based on where they are in their lives, but he was using artistic license given that there's some fictional characters in there too (like Sweeney Todd). However, your research is definitely fascinating, Rath, trying to pin that all down

As for the time period of Nation and Dodger being the same... it doesn't really matter, because Nation is definitely not in "our" Earth (or even Dodger's Earth), as can be seen for the various different names of the countries.

 

[RathDarkblade]

LOL! Yes, I'm ignoring Sweeney Todd on purpose. He definitely doesn't fit in there.

As for Queen Vic's kids ... the fact that there aren't any kids running about doesn't mean much, to be honest. Queen Vic thought that babies and breast-feeding was disgusting -- so much so that, when her kids were born, she palmed them off on wet-nurses and nurse-maids, and went on being queen. (Drastic by today's standards, of course!)

However, the fact that she is described as "young" probably indicates the early 1840s, when Victoria was in her early-to-mid 20s.

 

[raisindot]

I had a really hard time getting into Nation. I really need to read it in the book form, since iit's the only Pterry book I've "read" via the audiobook version only. It just seemed to go and on and on and never quite grabbed me. But a re-reading may help me appreciate it more.

It doesn't make any sense trying to figure out which "universe" it took place in or whether it's based on a particular island. Not everything Pterry wrote had actual references to places that existed in real life. I think the DW books have conditioned us to think that every character, theme and place are based on roundworld characters, themes and places. This doesn't necessarily have to be true in Nation.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Of course not everything that Terry wrote also happened on Roundworld. The wizards throwing fireballs, for a start. Supermarket trolleys coming to life. Death hiring an apprentice. Witches helping dwarfs stuck in pumpkins and squashes.. I'm sure I can think of other things.

Naturally, that doesn't that I'd stop reading DW just because of stuff like that! If I did, I would become an Auditor of Discworld Reality (and no-one wants that -- least of all me!)

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Of course not everything that Terry wrote also happened on Roundworld. The wizards throwing fireballs, for a start. Supermarket trolleys coming to life. Death hiring an apprentice. Witches helping dwarfs stuck in pumpkins and squashes.. I'm sure I can think of other things.

Naturally, that doesn't that I'd stop reading DW just because of stuff like that! If I did, I would become an Auditor of Discworld Reality (and no-one wants that -- least of all me!)

What do you mean to say Harry Potter et all are not real wizzards.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Of course Harry Potter isn't a real wizzard. He doesn't know how to scream "HELP!" in 37 languages, doesn't know how to gibber and grovel in a further 12, and doesn't run away all the time.

 

[Penfold]

I had a really hard time getting into Nation. I really need to read it in the book form, since iit's the only Pterry book I've "read" via the audiobook version only. It just seemed to go and on and on and never quite grabbed me. But a re-reading may help me appreciate it more.

I know what you mean and it took me a reread to appreciate it. (I was the same with Unseen Academicals which subsequently went on to be one of my favourite books.)

 

[Tonyblack]

Nation is basically a book comparing religion to science and questioning continuing traditions in the face of adversity. I guess a bit like people insisting on going to church during a global pandemic.