SPOILERS Raising Steam *Warning Spoilers*

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=Tamar

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May 20, 2012
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raisindot said:
=Tamar said:
Would it be reasonable, I wonder, to consider the machines of industrialization to be taking the place of complex villains in Discworld? They are not presented as unalloyed good things, they appear to be at least semi-conscious, even a bit sly, they must be treated with caution. [snips by =Tamar] To be fair, not all machinery is conscious.[...] The basement machine in MM wasn't conscious, though its maker, Igor, could be considered a kind of dangerous machine in that he builds what is asked for, without concern for the eventual potential mayhem - something that could be said of most if not all Igors.
While I think it's valid to argue that the gonne was the villain in MAA, I think it's a stretch to say that the other "industrial" products are villains. The press in TT was really a neutral thing; it could be used either for good (exposing conspiracies hatched by the wealthy) or for perpetuating lies (stories about alien abductions and snake children). None of the other technologies you mention were sentient at all--certainly not the way Iron Girder is in RS.

Vetinari is pretty much the bellwhether of "acceptance" of technological change. He was opposed to moving pictures and music with rocks, but by the time of The Fifth Elephant he certainly was in favor of the clacks, which one would have thought represented one of the biggest threats to the control of information. His change in attitude toward the clacks paved the way for him to approve the press in The Truth, and from that point forward (especially after benefiting first hand from the press), he has been in favor of technological advancements that he perceives primarily benefits Ankh Morpork.

The other "supporting" machines--the sorting machine in GP, the Glooper in MM, even the Devices in Snuff--aren't essential to the plots and really are there mainly to "eldritch up" momentary plot points.
I'd forgotten the clacks existed that far back. Good catch.

Perhaps "villain" wasn't the word I was looking for. Possibly "major character"? The press in TT is described as apparently conscous, and it begins and ends the story, and that is often an indication of a major character in Discworld, even at times a protagonist.

The sorting machine in GP wasn't conscious; I think it probably existed mainly to get rid of the monster, though it added more strain to the post office, the initial issue of overwork was and is still real without any extra machinery. The Glooper in MM wasn't conscious either, but Igor was, and all the Igors are problematic; they aren't villains, but they are conscious beings who choose not to judge their employers - they just follow orders... yet they judge anyone who doesn't go along with their medical recycling. The Glooper wasn't destroyed either, though if I recall correctly it was sealed, so that it could no longer make adjustments to the A-M economy, but only reflect it.

However, the press in TT is definitely described in a manner that causes uneasiness in the character observing it.
So is Iron Girder, the railway engine in RS. The Press doesn't kill anyone, but Iron Girder does, and it even is perceived as issuing a kind of threat. I think the railway in general may have been brought in to replace the Devices, which were limited, possibly alien, and definitely would have been a source of trouble, being as unlimited as the golems and apparently nonsentient (though who knows whether they were related to the Device the Nomes had?). It would have unbalanced A-M badly to have a guilt-free source of free energy. (If nothing else, that would have been something 'worth' having a war over.)

I still kind of wish Sir Terry had gone with the Undertaking; I wanted to see Moist in a golden hard hat.
 

raisindot

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AVAST, MINOR SPOILERS OF OTHER BOOKS AHEAD

I always really thought that the perceived "eldritchness" of the press was more of the psychosis of the people who used it, rather than representing any real sentience. Kind of like a slot machine or even heroin--machines or substances that make users "worship them" in some way. But I don't think the press itself ever "spoke" to DeWorde or Sacaricia--certainly not the way the unposted letters spoke to Moist in GP. And in TT, the story wasn't about the press--it was really about DeWorde's transformation from a gadfly to a (self-important) representative of the Public Interest. The press was really the tool that made it happen. In Raising Steam, however, Iron Girder itself definitely has some kind of sentience, and beginning of the book implies that the DW itself made the planet "ready for the railway" and Simnel and the others were simply the tools that enabled it to be built.
 

MrsWizzard

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I'm only two pages into reading the replies to this thread, so forgive me if I repeat what's already been said.

That being said, I loved this one. I must admit Moist has not really been one of my favorites, but this comes mostly from feeling clever when I understand references from other story lines, which is harder to do with Moist who I, up to now, still mentally filed in the "stand alone" sub series. This was thrown out early though when I realized Dick is the son of Ned Simnel from Reaper Man.

The dwarf politics put me off a bit, because I thought that had finished being covered in Thud! and I prefer the dwarves much less to other Uberwald races such as the vampires or werewolves. But I adored the ample screen time Vetinari received, and Harry King was a character I never thought we'd get to see much development of. I also love the brief cameos of other favorites like Lady Margolotta and the wizards (particularly one coward I have a soft spot for who we haven't seen since UA ;) ). It has all the drive and excitement of any other Discworld adventure, and plenty of laughs to, with just that special touch of deep thinking only Mr. Pratchett can weave in so well.

Given that, if I had one wish for the book, I'd have liked to see more of Adora Belle. The few scenes we got of her exemplified her "Spike-iness" superbly and it got me riled for more of her special brand of badassery.

The train top chase was, of course, absolutely required, and who doesn't love the thought of Moist doing a tap dance number on top of Iron Girder? :laugh:
 
Oct 12, 2011
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So I'm behind the times, but I've just finished my first read-through of RS. I don't at this point remember all the details, and I certainly won't try to analyse it in the depth found on this thread (which I have read through). But here are a few impressions.

It was okay. Not brilliant, but then for the last few Discworld novels, "okay" is about how I'd describe them. I had no inclination to put it down half-way, unlike say Colour of Magic or Light Fantastic, which I find it a bit of an effort to get through.

I thought Vetinari was out of character. (And it can't all have been Charlie...) Standing staring at the wall for minutes, with other people in the room? Why was he so desperate to get the railway built to Uberwald, even before the dwarf crisis arose? And in his dealings with Moist, there was too much iron fist, and not enough velvet glove. I didn't see it coming that the fighting stoker was Vetinari, but then I don't believe Vetinari would be physically up to doing the work of a stoker.

I did pick up the references to Brief Encounter and The Railway Children - mildly entertaining. I don't really understand the bit about the bridge. All right, the golems supported the train going across, but what about where the train felt like it was flying? I don't believe golems can levitate.

The theme of terrorist atrocities committed by religious fanatics is nicely topical, but maybe a little too close to "round world" to be entertainment in a Discworld setting.

Time will tell how often I feel like re-reading this one. The most worn books on my Discworld shelf are the Witches series and the Watch series. Moist, like the wizards, doesn't get revisited so often. I don't know if there's enough of the Watch in this one to count as a favourite.

Mary
 

elena

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Nov 4, 2015
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I didn't read all the pages of comments, so please forgive me if I say something that was already pointed out.

I felt that Terry wanted to give a feeling of hope... really, (it's always IMHO!) in the book the little evil it happens is preatty quicky resolved. People are mostly good, understanding, generous.
I liked the way the influences of grags are fighted by everyday behaviour of the "normal" dwarfs..
I mean, in Thud most dwarfs were driven by the words of the grags, and only after the discovery of the homicide by the Dark Guard the behaviour of the city dwarfs change.
Here, while there are some traditionalist fighting to get things back as they were, mostly is the common sense of the people that put a stop to that.

I felt that, yes, this book was a bit different from others. Less intense, maybe, less dramatic, but I reckon this was a choice Terry made, to express his hope and believing in the human being...
 

RathDarkblade

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Mary Skater said:
So I'm behind the times, but I've just finished my first read-through of RS. I don't at this point remember all the details, and I certainly won't try to analyse it in the depth found on this thread (which I have read through). But here are a few impressions.

It was okay. Not brilliant, but then for the last few Discworld novels, "okay" is about how I'd describe them. I had no inclination to put it down half-way, unlike say Colour of Magic or Light Fantastic, which I find it a bit of an effort to get through.

I thought Vetinari was out of character. (And it can't all have been Charlie...) Standing staring at the wall for minutes, with other people in the room? Why was he so desperate to get the railway built to Uberwald, even before the dwarf crisis arose? And in his dealings with Moist, there was too much iron fist, and not enough velvet glove. I didn't see it coming that the fighting stoker was Vetinari, but then I don't believe Vetinari would be physically up to doing the work of a stoker.

I did pick up the references to Brief Encounter and The Railway Children - mildly entertaining. I don't really understand the bit about the bridge. All right, the golems supported the train going across, but what about where the train felt like it was flying? I don't believe golems can levitate.

The theme of terrorist atrocities committed by religious fanatics is nicely topical, but maybe a little too close to "round world" to be entertainment in a Discworld setting.

Time will tell how often I feel like re-reading this one. The most worn books on my Discworld shelf are the Witches series and the Watch series. Moist, like the wizards, doesn't get revisited so often. I don't know if there's enough of the Watch in this one to count as a favourite.

Mary
Mary, Vetinari (as we've seen elsewhere) is awesome incarnate. He can do anything he wants to (within reason, of course).

Of course none of us could foresee that he was the stoker. Vetinari
scored 0% in his stealth classes
(in "Night Watch"),
which was really 100% but he was marked down because the teacher couldn't see him...
remember? ;)

The terrorist theme is one that Pterry has already touched on pretty extensively in Thud!. It seems pretty obvious to continue it here in Raising Steam.

elena said:
I didn't read all the pages of comments, so please forgive me if I say something that was already pointed out.

I felt that Terry wanted to give a feeling of hope... really, (it's always IMHO!) in the book the little evil it happens is preatty quicky resolved. People are mostly good, understanding, generous.
I liked the way the influences of grags are fighted by everyday behaviour of the "normal" dwarfs..
I mean, in Thud most dwarfs were driven by the words of the grags, and only after the discovery of the homicide by the Dark Guard the behaviour of the city dwarfs change.
Here, while there are some traditionalist fighting to get things back as they were, mostly is the common sense of the people that put a stop to that.

I felt that, yes, this book was a bit different from others. Less intense, maybe, less dramatic, but I reckon this was a choice Terry made, to express his hope and believing in the human being...
Elena, Pterry's books of late have mostly been giving me the same feeling of hope that you describe. Yes, I like the way that the grag influence is fought off by the "normal" dwarves.

In "Thud!", most of the city dwarves are torn between their duty to tradition and their new way of life. They don't know enough to distrust the grags. The various homicides are the grag Moral Event Horizon, as far as the city dwarves are concerned... after this, the city dwarves realise who their real enemies are. For me, one of the most powerful passages in "Thud!" happens after Vimes and Willikins
fight off a bunch of Dark Guards who threaten Vimes's family in their home.
Then, when Vimes walks into the office and is beset by the city dwarves, he is angry beyond words - but he asks them to vouch for the new grag, Bashful Bashfulsson. He asks Setha Ironcrust, "What do you say?"

The answer -
"They killed my son"
- chills Vimes's blood, obviously, because
he and Willikins had just stopped a bunch of dwarf assassins from killing Sam Jr.
. Where there was rage before, there was just cold now. It's one of the most powerful moments from Pterry that I've seen. It's Nightmare Fuel and a Tearjerker rolled into one.

Let's hope that we can all do the same on Roundworld against our own grags. We must.
 

raisindot

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RathDarkblade said:
In "Thud!", most of the city dwarves are torn between their duty to tradition and their new way of life. They don't know enough to distrust the grags. The various homicides are the grag Moral Event Horizon, as far as the city dwarves are concerned... after this, the city dwarves realise who their real enemies are. For me, one of the most powerful passages in "Thud!" happens after Vimes and Willikins
fight off a bunch of Dark Guards who threaten Vimes's family in their home.
Then, when Vimes walks into the office and is beset by the city dwarves, he is angry beyond words - but he asks them to vouch for the new grag, Bashful Bashfulsson. He asks Setha Ironcrust, "What do you say?"

The answer -
"They killed my son"
- chills Vimes's blood, obviously, because
he and Willikins had just stopped a bunch of dwarf assassins from killing Sam Jr.
. Where there was rage before, there was just cold now. It's one of the most powerful moments from Pterry that I've seen. It's Nightmare Fuel and a Tearjerker rolled into one.
That may be my favorite scene in all of the DW books. It's so scorched earth (pun intended) and raw and just cuts through Vimes' rage and bravado (literally) like a knife. The only scene that I cam compare it to is at the climax of The Fifth Elephant where

Vimes "tricks" Wolfgang into hastening his own end and walks away trying to rationalize that what he did wasn't murder. One of Pterry's best and most nakedly emotional lines comes there, too, something like: "At times like this, teetotalism bit down hard."
 
Nov 21, 2010
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I know, I know, I'm always late to the party! Despite being on my bookshelf in hardback for well over a year, I finally got sometime to read it a few months back. I've just read through this entire thread and had some things cleared up for me so thanks guys and don't have anything to add other than

I really, really enjoyed it. :clap: One happy fan right here <--- I was also on holiday at the time, drinking lots of cocktails but I'm nearly 100% sure that had nothing to do with it :-D
 

Mixa

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I’m definitely late, but I totally agree with you Spideygirl2! :clap:

Personally I haven’t got anything bad to say about “Raising Steam”. It may not be the best of Discworld novels, but I do thank Pratchett for writing such an emotive farewell. I absolutely loved revisiting lots and lots of old characters, even though they only appeared to say a quick “Hello”! And I agree with you, Rath… Vetinari is the boss! :mrgreen:

RathDarkblade said:
Mary, Vetinari (as we've seen elsewhere) is awesome incarnate. He can do anything he wants to (within reason, of course).
The arrival of the train for me it’s a guarantee all these characters will keep developing and have a bright future, and also a simile to life and the creative process of Discworld. There have been difficulties all along the way but the best thing of getting here is having enjoyed every step of the way, as I’m sure Pratchett did.

elena said:
I felt that, yes, this book was a bit different from others. Less intense, maybe, less dramatic, but I reckon this was a choice Terry made, to express his hope and believing in the human being...
And maybe even to become a little bit reconciled with monarchy? I couldn’t help thinking the Low Queen could be a bit of a representation of the English Queen herself, holding on and fighting for the crown. :laugh:

RathDarkblade said:
Let's hope that we can all do the same on Roundworld against our own grags. We must.
I couldn’t agree more with you, guys! And as Terry himself wrote, I think “Raising Steam” was kind of a last “hurrah”, a clear message to all his fans. Was I the only one deeply moved by one of the last paragraphs of the book? I could nearly hear Pratchett saying it with his own voice:

<<Sometimes, Mister Lipwig, the young you that you lost many years ago comes back and taps you on the shoulder and says, “This is the moment when civilization does not matter, when rules no longer hold sway. You have given the world all you can give and not it’s the time that is just for you, the chance to go for broke in the last hurrah.” Hurrah!>>



Mx
 

Tonyblack

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You know, it's a funny thing that we do as Discworld readers (or maybe it's just me) and that's creating an internal cast of real dramatic characters to fit Discworld books. A case in point is Frank Skinner's role as Perkins the engineer in the Doctor Who Episode, Mummy on the Orient Express. I know he's not a great actor and too old for the role, but I could see him as Dick Simnel. The flat cap and the accent and the twinkle in his eye in the role, seems a fairly good fit for Simnel.
 
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A case in point is Frank Skinner's role as Perkins the engineer in the Doctor Who Episode, Mummy on the Orient Express.
I too try and imagine what actors would best represent a DW character. I haven't seen Frank Skinner in anything, but when I looked at his photo, I can say I agree with you. He has a nice honest look about him.
 
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Chris O'Dowd is another actor that might do a good job with Dick Simnel. Though he is thought of more as a comedian (I think).
 
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RathDarkblade

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I haven't seen this before - but I have to say a big THANK YOU to =Tamar for this bit:

I think it might be a combination of "Gravel Gertie" and Gertrude Street in Australia which has a famous wrought iron company.
Gravel Gertie was a character in Dick Tracy who was homely but had beautiful hair and could play and sing well (which reminds me of the goblins). However, "a Gravel Gertie" is a bunker designed to contain low-order nuclear explosions, which reminds me of a reported incident in RS.

Alpha Wrought Iron (230 Gertrude St., Fitzroy, VIC Australia), "Recognised as the pinnacle of wrought iron craftsmanship in Australia, our reputation has been forged over 50 years." Sir Terry has visited Australia many times and may have been made aware of them.

Then there's the whole "girt by sea" element (TLC), and... well, the words "gird" and "girdle" are funny words with associations of speed and power: Puck says, "I'll put a girdle round about the Earth in forty minutes."
So maybe a "girder" could be "something that girds"- the Iron Girder could gird Ankh-Morpork faster than the average horse (and maybe faster than a golem horse).
I'd never understood why the train was called Iron Girder, but now I do. :) Thank you! And speaking as an Ecksian ... d'oh! :oops: That address for Alpha Wrought Iron was just down the road from where I used to work, about 10 years ago. I must have passed by it maybe a hundred times, but I never knew it was there (or didn't recognise it).
===========
Plus, I have something else to say about RS - and this might be obvious to anyone who knows a bit of Yiddish. ;) Throughout the novel, there's the mention of the word "smuts" (meaning "dirt") - I got a smuts in my eye, you got a smuts on your collar, etc. For years and years, I thought it sounded familiar, but couldn't put my finger on it.

Anyway - shmutz (or shmuts) is Yiddish for "dirt" - a little dirt, not serious grime. If a little boy has shmutz on his face, and he likely will, his mother will quickly wipe it off. It can also mean dirty language. ;) It’s not nice to talk shmutz about shmutz!

A current derivation, “schmitzig”, means a “thigamabob” or a “doodad”, but has nothing to do with filth. :)

(Plus, the word "smuts" is reminiscent of "smut", which also means something dirty ... and, quite possibly, is also derived from the Yiddish shmutz!) :)

Just thought I'd throw it out there, if anyone's curious. New words are always fun. :)
 

=Tamar

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In English, "smut" also means "a small spot of ordinary dirt", a "spot of dirt specifically from the smoke from a coal-burning steam engine", and a disease of maize.
 
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RathDarkblade

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Hmm? OK, I wasn't aware of that meaning. I always thought that "smut" was an archaic word for ... shall we say politely, 'erotic' books. Like "Fanny Hill", or "Lady Chatterley's Lover".

As the judge remarked the day that he acquitted my aunt Hortense:
To be smut,
It must be ut-
terly without redeeming social importance ...

--"Smut", Tom Lehrer (from "That was the Year that was", 1965) ;)
 

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