SPOILERS Sir Harry King Character Discussion

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Tonyblack

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#1
For this week's discussion, I thought we go for someone who is a minor character, but has a major influence on the city of Ankh-Morpork and, ultimately the Disc as a whole. So this discussion is about Sir Harry King. Possibly a gangster - maybe a reformed gangster. Is he a sympathetic character? Does he grow as a sympathetic character as the books progress? Can you think of any real world Harry Kings?

Apologies for posting this at the end of the week rather than the beginning. For some reason I thought it was Monday today and, once I started this post, I didn't see any reason to wait. :)

So . . . Harry King? Thoughts please.
 
#2
I've never seen Harry King as a gangster (at least not in the Mafia style of things) - he's someone who started from nothing but managed to get the idea that one man's refuse is another man's treasure and both of them would pay him to arrange the transfer.

What started with buckets at pubs being taken to the tanners and dyers, and then moves into dealing with 'night soil' (and working with the Guild of Plumbers of Dunnikin Divers) eventually becomes an empire as King cleverly builds a business on removing the waste of those who don't want it (the upper and middle classes, mostly), processing and recycling it and selling it to those who can make use of the products (manufactures, tradesmen, and even things like the newspaper industry which can print on recycled paper).

Harry is a true (and potentially even literal) rags to riches story, and thus garners grudging respect from all members of society. He's also willing to employ all sorts of sapient species as long as they're hard workers because they all help make him more money (which he mostly uses to provide for his family, and to a certain extent his employees, and also reinvests into his business empire - allowing him to take a risk on things such as the railway). There's even a bit more insight into his character in the wonderful "World of Poo" short book as he shows young Geoffrey around his compound.

King is a shrewd business man, but also has respect for anyone willing to work hard (regardless of their social status) and is willing to make certain quid pro quo deals to that respect (e.g. with William in The Truth)
 

RathDarkblade

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Mar 24, 2015
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#3
Well said, Molokov. :)

I don't think Harry King's a gangster, either. He's tough, certainly - but only on people who try to cheat him or steal from him. See, for instance, the repeated mentions of the Lipwigzers that he has roaming 'round his yard (mentioned in "Going Postal"), and the mention of the time when he caught a dwarf lawyer who got his fingers stuck in the till and threw him down the stairs (mentioned in "Raising Steam").

Any discussion of Harry King wouldn't be complete without mentioning his famous rings, i.e. the last thing that anyone who tries to swindle Harry King sees. ;)

Rumour had it that his wife Effie was behind the removal of the much admired sign on the entrance to Harry's yard, which said: "H. King - Taking the Piss Since 1961". Now it reads: "H. King - Recycling Nature's Bounty".

Overall, I like Harry very much. It is impossible to dislike Harry, he's so likeable. Not only does he care for his wife and daughters (and grandchildren as of RS), but he also employs everyone - everyone - without any discrimination. He only asks his employees to work as hard as he does, he pays them all a fair wage, and he takes good care of them - even going so far as to give them Hogswatch dinners (with named meat!), and build little cottages for the railway men (with indoor plumbing - fancy that).

I find Harry more admirable than many other real-life entrepreneurs (Alan Bond and Christopher Skase come to mind, as well as a certain president). He is certainly much more admirable than any of the real-life railroad barons like Jay Gould, J. Pierpont Morgan, and Cornelius Vanderbilt, whose business practices included mass discrimination, working their employees to death, and paying them pitiful wages. Alas, there was no Lord Vetinari there to keep them on the leash. :(
 
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=Tamar

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May 20, 2012
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#6
Harry King also is able to see the potential in something as nebulous as paper money. He knew Moist von Lipwig had made a success of the Post Office and was willing to support him even when things looked bad. I'm not 100% sure that Vetinari hadn't tipped him off, but Harry knows when to support a venture and when to cut his losses. Harry also saw the long-term benefit of the railway.
 

Tonyblack

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Jul 25, 2008
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#7
Harry clearly saw a little of himself in Moist. He knew that whatever Moist was up to, it would be lucrative.

In my original post, I pondered on whether Harry had possibly been a gangster. He certainly surrounds himself with tough guys and gives the impression that he would deal swiftly and with malice to anyone who crossed him. Vetinari realises what a good job he is doing, cleaning up the city and employing those nobody else will and, possibly because of that, he leaves Harry alone. Harry has come to the point where he is considered by some, to be an asset to the city, while others sneer at him. I think it gives Vetinari a certain amount of pleasure to allow Harry to climb socially. One of the things about Vetinari's social experiment, is allowing the class structure to become more fluid. He also realises that Harry is, along with Sam Vimes and himself, very much in love with the city.
 

Penfold

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Dec 29, 2009
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#8
One thing that did strike me was the job of world-building (or city building in this case) that Terry accomplished with the introduction of Harry King. I don't know of any other author that dealt with the issue of waste disposal, particularly bodily wastes, in a city that doesn't have plumbing or, apparently, a working sewer system. Not only that but also what that waste was used for (which was also historically accurate).
 

Tonyblack

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#9
Terry seemed to have a fascination of such places as London in the Victorian era. Not only did he read all the Punch magazines for the time, but he also read a lot of books describing the poor people and the sanitation. I think Dodger grew out of these books,, as well as the world building he did with the DW series.
 

RathDarkblade

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#10
Hmm. I didn't think of it before, but Tony, I think you're right. Harry King and Sam Vimes are similar, in a way: they both grew up in the gutter, they both love A-M, they both do necessary and smelly jobs, and they are both considered by some to be an asset to the A-M (while others sneer at them). Crucially, they also both have Vetinari's support.

Of course, they are also very different characters. Vimes has many kinds of protection, not least of which is his own skill and iron determination, but also the rest of the Watch and - crucially - the Guarding Dark. Harry King has just two: his own considerable skill and the thugs he surrounds himself with (plus his Lipwigzers). ;)

Penners, your post is also very true re: the uses for bodily waste.

Now I wonder: what real-world era, would you say, is Ankh-Morpork (roughly) in? Most guides I've seen say that it starts off (in TCOM) as roughly medieval, but that has three problems:

1. First, and most important - which "medieval" are we talking about? Early Middle Ages (roughly 600-700 to 1000), High Middle Ages (roughly 1000 to 1250), or Late Middle Ages (roughly 1250 to 1500)? Each of these ages are obviously different. :)
2. If we take Vetinari to be equivalent of Lorenzo de Medici (aka 'il Magnifico' or 'the Magnificent', which he is often compared to), that gives us the period 1469-1492. And yet ...
3. Suffer-Not-Injustice "Old Stoneface" Vimes, who beheaded Lorenzo the Kind, is obviously based on Oliver Cromwell. Yet Cromwell lived from 1599 to 1658, so his that would place his descendant in the mid-1700s, at least - obviously far too late to be medieval.

So ... is there a solution to all this? Or is it best not to think about it? ;) It's just an interesting puzzle.
 

Tonyblack

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Jul 25, 2008
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#11
By the Harry King stage, A-M is Industrial Revolution. Though there are anomalies, such as the very Elizabethan Dysk Theatre. I believe this is somewhat explained by the History Monks . . . although that is more of an excuse than an explanation. And as there is now a reconstruction of Shakespeare's Globe in modern London, that performs Shakespeare's plays in the way they were originally performed, then maybe it's not so strange after all.

As to exact dates of characters and events in our world - I think you are on a hiding to nothing going down that route. DW is a concoction of things, references allusions and parodies.
 

raisindot

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Oct 1, 2009
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#12
As always, spoilers ahead

Harry King, along with Moist and William De Worde, are the lynchpins of the "modernizing economy" that arguably begins with introduction of the clacks in The Fifth Elephant. All three of these men, are, some degree, self-made men who end up building their respective business successes on their own. (Yes, William comes from the aristocracy, but since falling with his father he's always had to support himself, and in The Truth, is constantly facing financial shortages).

In the books in which these characters appear, they represent the "good" new entrepreneurs of the city, who are breaking the hold that the guilds and their outdated, reactionary ways had on AM''s progress. While Moist and William had to convince Vetinari that their innovations would, over the long term, benefit the city, Harry King seemingly always operated in his own world and was never under the thumb of the Patrician or any of the other old, discredited aristocratic hierarchies. Probably because his businesses always were useful (literally taking the piss) and never threatened anyone (who would want to take the piss?) and he never tried to force his will over the guilds or the old-money aristocrats, much to his beloved Effie's chagrin.

There are some great scenes either featuring Harry or about him in the few books in which he appears. I love the scene near the end of The Truth where William asks Vetinari (acting like a reporter), whether the Patrician will be attending the wedding of Harry King's daughter, and, after a quick beat, Vetinari quickly sees the lay of the land and answers affirmatively.

I also love the scene in Making Money where King arrives at the bank with a huge deposit just as Moist is trying to fend off of a run and is about to be arrested for "stealing the gold."
 

Tonyblack

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#13
NOTICE: I have moved several sections from this thread to the Making Money Discussion thread HERE. I did this because the posts were best served there than here. I don't mind a thread going off topic a little, generally, but this was several posts about a subject that a tread already exists for.
 

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