SPOILERS The Truth Discussion **Spoilers**

[Woofb]

Well ... here is an extract from "The Art of Discworld", where Pin & Tulip are illustrated.

And here is another illustration of our favourite crims

And ... eh, one more. Just for fun

Those are gorgeous! In a slightly warped way

 

[raisindot]

And here is another illustration of our favourite crims

And ... eh, one more. Just for fun

These don't look anything like what I envision Pin and Tulip look like. I don't think Pterry ever described Tulip as looking like a troll-sized human. If he was, then everyone in the book who met him would have been instantly terrified of him, and that wasn't always the case. The cleric in the temple wasn't terrified of Tulip and admired his knowledge of art valuation. The denizens of the undead tavern weren't afraid of him until he started acting violent. Even Wm. De Worde and Sacaricia weren't initially scared of him--they were more perplexed by the vision of this strangely masculine looking "Sister Jenniifer" I always envision Tulip as a shorter, heavyset man whose true menace is expressed in his eyes and his voice. To me, visually they remind me of Abbot and Costello, with Pin as the tall thin one with a dour expression and Tulip as the shorter fat man with beady eyes.

 

[Tonyblack]

Terry rarely described his characters in any depth. I believe he did this purposely to allow the reader to draw their own imagination.

 

[raisindot]

Terry rarely described his characters in any depth. I believe he did this purposely to allow the reader to draw their own imagination.

He actually rarely described male characters in any depth. He often described female characters in depth, or at least highlighted specific features of them, not always in a particularly nice way. Agnes's body weight and hair were the subjects of endless jokes. Nanny Ogg's "apple core" face. Magrat's frizzy hair and flat chest. Sacaricia's "antique" features that never quite fit together. Lady Sibyl's "largeness." Or he used "dumb blond" cliches to describe dumb blondes like Juliet and Christie. For someone who so often created strong, multi-dimensional characters, Pterry often lapsed into fantasy-genre cliches.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm ... many of the female characters who are described in unflattering terms often turn out to have "compensating factors" (or interesting factors) to "make up" for their lack of attractiveness. Agnes's Perdita factor made her interesting. Nanny Ogg is a fully rounded character, smarter than Granny Weatherwax in many ways, highly experienced in midwifery, and always fun to have around. Magrat is stronger than the other witches give her credit for. Lady Sibyl often surprises those who think of her as a passive housewife. And so on.

I think Pterry's female characters often showed readers not to judge a book by its cover. True, Christine turned out to be just as shallow as we first thought - but then, I've performed in theatre and live music for nearly 15 years, and I've known many shallow performers (both male and female). Besides, Signor Basilica is nearly as vain as Christine is.

Also, what about Letitia (the Duchess's daughter from "I Shall Wear Midnight"?) At first glance, she looks like a shallow-blonde cliche. But she becomes a much more interesting character once we learn what she'd been up to - i.e.

Spoiler

summoning the Cunning Man by accident and helping Tiffany to banish him.

Again, never judge a book by its cover or characters by their appearances. They will surprise you.

 

[raisindot]

[QUOTE="RathDarkblade, post: 384642, member: 7149"
Again, never judge a book by its cover or characters by their appearances. They will surprise you. [/QUOTE]

The point I'm making here is that Pterry often uses unflattering language to describe main female characters (even those who turn out to be strong and powerful) in a way that he doesn't do with most of the male "positive" protagonists (Vimes, De Worde, Moist, Carrot).

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm ... Vimes in G!G! is hardly a flattering picture. He is bitter, cynical, and often drunk. The best you can say about him is that he is persistent.

Carrot becomes less and less likeable after Feet of Clay (and definitely in TFE). He is redeemed somewhat in TLH, but there he is more or less a supporting character.

Moist is supposed to be nondescript and unmemorable. Having a dime-a-dozen face is the whole secret of his success.

I think women are judged more on their appearance than men in the real world as well as in Discworld. This is unfair, of course, but no-one ever said the world was fair. *shrug*

We also get female characters who do get described favourably. Take, for instance, Vena the Raven-Haired (TLH), or Herrena the Henna-Haired Harridan (TLF) ... or Eskarina Smith. Some male characters also get described unfavourably - for instance, the entire faculty of UU! They are lazy, greedy, and rather stupid, but still likeable (in an odd way). The only two who are not lazy or stupid are the Librarian and Ridcully -- and some Archchancellors before Ridcully are also fairly lazy, if not necessary stupid.

 

[Tonyblack]

The description of Carrot and Vimes in the books is about their character - not their physical description. I have to say that I've often felt uneasy at Terry's physical descriptions of the female characters.

 

[=Tamar]

There was a fairly intense discussion of the audience response to those descriptions on the old Mark Reads Discworld site.
Essentially, it came down to a deeply ingrained belief that female characters weren't allowed to not be pretty and sylphlike. A plain descripiton of a physical characteristic that didn't fit the Old Hollywood Image was instantly labeled insulting, even though it was not using any bad words. The discussion focused primarily on Helen of Troy in Eric, who was described as a Mediterranean-typical woman who had normal traits of that genotype and had had quite a few children over the ten years.
The description was not insulting. The response in the minds of some of the readers was insulting, because they couldn't accept that a woman of that description could be instantly recognized as the beautiful Helen of Troy. Which she was - the soldiers who had never seen her instantly recognized her as Helen, not just a nurse maid or other servant. There was no indication of rich clothing - no clues - just that she was beautiful.
It's a subtle point but a very important one.
Describing Agnes as fat, even as humorously fat, does not belittle her if you don't assume that fat is automatically a "bad" condition!
And if you look at the descriptions of the males in the books, they are not generally described as handsome either.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Very true. Vimes isn't exactly handsome. Colon is described as "overflowing". The less said about Nobby, the better.

Why is it that if a woman isn't described as beautiful, it's viewed as an insult - and if a man isn't described as beautiful, everyone just moves on? Isn't that a double-standard?

 

[raisindot]

Describing Agnes as fat, even as humorously fat, does not belittle her if you don't assume that fat is automatically a "bad" condition!
And if you look at the descriptions of the males in the books, they are not generally described as handsome either.

As I mentioned, other than Rincewind, there's little physical description of the main series protagonists like Moist, Vimes and De. Worde. Pterry does provide physical descriptions of some supporting male characters, but often only using broad strokes (what do we know about Fred's looks other than he is fat? About Nobby other than he is pencil thin, has mottled skin and looks like chimpanzee? About A.E. Pessimil other than he is a tiny, waif-like man? About Vetinari at all--do we even know that he has a beard? About Ridcully, other than he is a very tall, large man with a beard?

And I disagree with the notion that using words like "fat," "frizzy hair" and "flat chested" to describe the witches isn't a bit insulting. He wouldn't have used such language if he wasn't trying to make a point. In fact, I'd say his descriptions of Agnes's weight are rather insulting, if only because he describes Perdita something to the effect of "the thin girl inside every fat girl waiting to get out." This implies it's the sub-conscious wish of Agnes to be thin.

 

[Phillips]

hi all,
Reading 'The Truth' for the first time. Can anyone explain this passage ( on p 40 of my Harper Collins paperback edition). I know what the 'clacks ' are. I don't understand why Ridcully says 'They would be pretty high'. quote is below:
Vetinari: 'I mean that you may now send a clacks all the way to Genua to order a ..... pint of shrimps, if you like. Is that not a notable thing?
Ridcully, High Priest of Blind Io: They would be pretty high when they got here, my lord!
Thanks

 

[Woofb]

hi all,
Reading 'The Truth' for the first time. Can anyone explain this passage ( on p 40 of my Harper Collins paperback edition). I know what the 'clacks ' are. I don't understand why Ridcully says 'They would be pretty high'. quote is below:
Vetinari: 'I mean that you may now send a clacks all the way to Genua to order a ..... pint of shrimps, if you like. Is that not a notable thing?
Ridcully, High Priest of Blind Io: They would be pretty high when they got here, my lord!
Thanks

Colloquial if old-fashioned English, certainly in British English: "high" or "ripe" as in "stinking, rotten, gone-off".
The humour is in the famously ascetic and intellectual Patrician wanting to talk about long-distance travel of information in bits, while a deliberately obtuse Ridcully (we may infer that Hughnon is fairly similar to his distinguished brother) brings the conversation down to earth.
That clear enough?

 

[Phillips]

Thanks so much! Makes so much sense now. Very clear. Cheers !

 

[Woofb]

Thanks so much! Makes so much sense now. Very clear. Cheers !

Great!

 

[RathDarkblade]

Can anyone get a "pint of shrimps"? *wonders* I thought a pint was a unit of measurement for drinks, not food. Am I wrong? *shrug*

 

[Tonyblack]

Yes, shellfish was sold by volume, so a "pint" was the correct term.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Ah, well. I was wrong and I'm not afraid to admit it. Thanks, Tony!

 

[Phillips]

Great!

Cheers, I'd never come across that meaning of 'high' before. cheers again

 

[raisindot]

In this instance, Pterry is riffing on "pint of prawns," a traditional meal ordered at a pub (some Irish-American pubs here in Boston have this dish on the menu) or a fish market. The joke here is that Vetinari is flippantly suggesting using the clacks to order a take-out meal from a restaurant 2,000 miles away.