SPOILERS Commander Sir Samuel Vimes

[Tonyblack]

Another major character to discuss this time: Sam Vimes. Like some of Terry's other major characters, he seems to have grown as the series proceeded. I think it is fair to say that he may be one of Terry's most developed characters.

But what do you think?

 

[RathDarkblade]

I agree. Vimes has been a favourite character of mine for some years, so I'm afraid this will be a little long (sorry!)

I think Vimes's development began when the Watch started to become bigger, after the conclusion of MAA. (I haven't read MAA in some time, and I know G!G! much better, so most of my comments will come from G!G!).

in G!G!, he seemed like an affectionate parody of the noir detectives like Philip Marlowe and Sam Spade (though, of course, neither Marlowe nor Spade ever had to deal with someone like Nobby).

The reason I compare Vimes in G!G! with Marlowe or Spade is that not only is he the protagonist, but he does most of his detective work himself. The police in Chandler's and Hammett's books are supporting characters.

In G!G!, also, Vimes attaches some importance to clues (like the foot print), unlike Vimes in, say, FOC - where he almost dismisses the vital clue of the broken match-stick, because it doesn't make sense at the time. ("Oh," said Vimes sourly. "A clue".)

By the end of MAA and the start of FOC, the Watch is obviously a growing force in A-M, and Vimes a major player. He's enough of one to give Vetinari a nasty shock at the end of FOC; Vetinari doesn't show it, but he comes across as being irritated by Vimes's axe in the table.

Speaking of which, the relationship between Vimes and Vetinari is complex, in that Vetinari clearly knows much more than Vimes does but prefers to allow Vimes considerable leeway. This is understood by the fact that if he didn't, there would be no story. I believe he is also secretly amused by the fact that Vimes continues to annoy the people who deserve to be annoyed, like Lord Rust (in MAA and "Jingo").

TFE, Thud! and Snuff (and, to a lesser extent, MR and Raising Steam) mark a departure for Vimes, in that we see him in action outside A-M. (We still see him in action in A-M throughout the Moist books - some Tiffany books, IIRC). I'm not sure if he becomes more or less irascible, but he never lets go of his belief in the law and his "sticking up for the underdog" mentality, both of which are very endearing.

"Night Watch" is an oddity because of the time element, but it's a great book and one of my personal favourites. (It's also one of my only signed copies, which obviously makes it more of a favourite). The element of danger for Vimes here is certainly greater - or at least as great - as earlier books.

I don't know if there is more than one "turning point" in Vimes's character development, but certainly his marriage to Sybil (MAA) and the birth of his son (in NW) count. The danger level increases in Thud!, so Vimes finds a weapon with which to fight it (i.e. the Summoning Dark tattoo).

My expectation was that in Snuff, the danger level would increase again to compensate for Vimes's increased strength - and I can't imagine if it did, but it's been years and years since I read Snuff. However, the tattoo certainly comes in handy during Raising Steam.

Anyway, I could go on and on, and I'm sure I've probably forgotten a few things - but I'll give someone else a go.

 

[Tonyblack]

I always thought that, in the first two Watch books, Carrot was meant to be that main protagonist - but when you make someone too perfect, they have no room to grow. Vimes has lots of imperfections, and that is what makes his character so much more interesting. In regard to Vetinari/Vimes - Yes Vetinari seems to (and does) know more than Vimes, but he (Vetinari) chooses to let things play out. And one thing that Vimes has that Vetinari lacks, is a highly suspicious nature and is able to see through people. Vimes is Nanny Ogg to Vetinari's Granny Weatherwax.

 

[raisindot]

I mostly agree, Tony. GG was mostly a Vimes story, but in Men at Arms it really did look like Pterry was moving to make Carrot the main character in the series. But, fortunately, he came to his senses. Feet of Clay is really the first book where the Vimes of the future books shows up. Carrot does have a major part, but it's Vimes' underdog's rage against the conspirators of the city that carries the narrative weight of the story here, and which ends up being a central spoke of his character at least through Thud! (I will argue that the Vimes of Snuff and Raising Steam is not the same man; he's become SuperVimes, untouchable by any kind of physical or emotional threat.

 

[Tonyblack]

As I remember it, Vimes is mostly seen through the eyes of Moist in Raising Steam. It's often interesting to see Vimes from another's POV - whether Polly in MR, de Worde in The Truth or Moist in RS. They don't always see him as we do and that tells of the face he chooses to show the public.

 

[RathDarkblade]

And one thing that Vimes has that Vetinari lacks, is a highly suspicious nature and is able to see through people.

I don't think I understand you, Tony. Do you mean that Vetinari isn't suspicious of others, or that he can't see (or guess) other people's motives? He wouldn't have survived for long in politics, then.

Vimes is Nanny Ogg to Vetinari's Granny Weatherwax.

In what way, exactly? Both Granny and Vimes get the big, dramatic scenes. Also, Vimes lacks Nanny's cheerfulness - I don't think I can picture Vimes throwing back beers like there's no tomorrow (except at the beginning of G!G!), or singing the Hedgehog Song at the top of his voice. Or keeping cats!

Vetinari gets some dramatic scenes, too, but he always struck me as a background character who takes care of things behind the scenes (except in "Jingo", when the threat of war forces his hand), or who delegates them to other people (e.g. in TLH).

In contrast, when Granny takes care of things, she does them "in front of the camera", and never gets anyone else to do her dirty work.

 

[Tonyblack]

Vimes is referred by some as Vetinari's terrier. While Vetinari is also suspicious of people, it takes Vimes to do the dirty work. As you (Rath) have pointed out, Vimes is like a Film Noir character. He grew up in a poor neighbourhood and knows the streets and the people that live there. Vetinari doesn't have that skill set to the same degree. A terrier is used by a hunter to dig out the prey - to get stuck in and do the dirty work, just like Vimes.

Nanny Ogg knows people and their ways far better than Granny - Nanny will use her extended family and the gossip they are privvy to, to find out what is going on. Finding out what has been going on regarding the young, would-be witches in L&L is an example. This is how I see a similarity in the four characters.

 

[RathDarkblade]

All right, now I get it. Thanks, Tony.

 

[MountainBard]

I don't get on here often enough (a failing which I am attempting to rectify) but it seems like every time I do Tony or someone has started a great new thread. I love the discussion of Vimes so far. He is, I think, the most well-developed character in the books. Sir Terry obviously liked the character, and over time he made Vimes so real, and the experiences he had in the books so engaging, that reading (and re-reading) them is very enjoyable. Full disclosure: I try to re-read two Discworld books a week to get inspiration and information for my podcast, and sometimes it's hard not to pick a Vimes book when I know I should read something else.

I love the fact that the first time we see Sam Vimes he is literally lying in the gutter drunk. From there Sir Terry takes the character from being a ruined man to being a happily married man with a son he treasures. It's easily to overlook the fact that Vimes' success in remaining sober plays a big part in the way his fortunes continue to improve. As a recovering alcoholic myself I am of course aware of that, and I cannot imagine keeping a bottle in my desk drawer to remind me that I can never take my sobriety for granted. Talk about an iron will.

As far as comparisons with other characters go, I think you can make a pretty good case for his strong similarity to Esme Weatherwax. They both have iron wills, an overwhelmingly strong sense of duty, and a generally cynical view of the world and its inhabitants.

The relationship between Vimes and Vetinari is fascinating, and a lot of fun to watch. Vimes knows Vetinari is smarter than he is, but he also knows he is more worldly and streetwise even Vetinari is. And they develop such an unspoken understanding of things that Vetinari is able to make oblique suggestions that Vimes totally gets, and Vimes is able to be obstinate and insubordinate without incurring Vetinari's wrath, because they both understand when either-- Vetinari's veiled suggestions and/or Vimes' truculence are necessary to achieve whatever it is they're trying to do.

I could go on for pages but I need to stop and not hog the thread. I look forward to the continuation of this discussion, and well done that man for initiating it.

 

[MountainBard]

There are a zillion images of Commander Vimes out there, of course, but this is probably my favorite. The cigar being lit and the Clint Eastwood "make my day" look on his face are spot on.

 

[Tonyblack]

Terry has said he sees Vimes as looking like Pete Postlethwaite - hence the likeness in Where's My Cow?

 

[MountainBard]

I confess I had to look Pete Postlethwaite up, but having done so I see it.

Here's a thing I've wondered about. Why do you think Vimes has such a visceral, unshakeable hatred of vampires? Granted there aren't a lot of species, including humans, that he particularly likes, but he tolerates the inclusion of every Discworld species except vampires into the watch. Granted he lets Sally Humperdink in, but that turns out to be a one-off. Thoughts?

 

[RathDarkblade]

I can't remember the quote exactly or where it is (i.e. which book), but he hates vampires because they treat people like cattle, or like they're not important.

Hold on ... *dredges memory* If I remember rightly, this comes up in Feet of Clay. More specifically, when he has his first audience with Dragon, King of Arms.

 

[Tonyblack]

Part of Vimes' growth as a character has been his losing of prejudices. It's like once he has worked with them, he gets to see them as "coppers" rather than the ethnic group they belong to. He didn't like dwarfs until he worked with Cuddy and didn't care much for trolls until he worked with Detritus. He was in a similar state when it came to Angua - although for a lot of the book we are meant to believe it was because she was a woman (known female watchmen are still very much under represented). Vampires seem to be the last holdout to his prejudice. He takes on Sally under protest and then his misgivings seem born out by the fact that she has been planted there as some sort of spy. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Otto - but he seems to see him as some sort of pantomime vampire - like the Count from Sesame Street. So comical that you forget that he could rip you to pieces given the opportunity.

 

[Molokov]

A few years ago, I played Otto in a play of The Truth, and when talking about my character, I used some of what you said above - he's a pantomime vampire, but it's mostly for show - i.e. he'd prefer people laugh at him than be scared of him. Of course, like all Black Ribboners, there's an undercurrent of barely-held-in control, and the obsession with something that *isn't* the b-vord, which is how most Black Ribboners manage to survive in polite society (In Otto's case, it's light and iconography, for Sally, it's justice). Then when I re-read Thud, I realised everything I'd used to describe Otto is *exactly what Vimes thinks about him at the start of that book*. So Vimes not being scared of Otto is mostly due to the surface pantomime vampire, but he *also* realises that it's a facade hiding an obsessive personality that's barely holding it together. I think Vimes realises this about all vampires (the obsessive nature) and he's only prepared to tolerate the Black Ribboners who seem to have a harness on controlling their obsessions into something that is harmless to other people. As soon as a vampire (Black Ribbonner or not) channels their obsession into something that exerts control or harm on other people, he's much more hard lined about stopping them (as is the case with Dragon King of Arms, and even Lady Margolotta to some extent). As time goes on, he comes to *accept* vampires as part of modern society, but I don't think he *trusts* them entirely, mostly because he's one of the few people that fully understands their nature.

 

[=Tamar]

Vimes thinks he understands vampires because his being an alcoholic maps onto their blood obsession. He switched to cigars, they switched to whatever hobby they find. Otto is particularly poignant because his chosen obsession, light, can harm him, just as the cigars aren't doing Vimes's health any good (except by keeping him off the alcohol). Vimes smokes outdoors to keep second-hand smoke away from his family. All of which is on the surface. A much closer resemblance is Vimes's inner dark side that he developed his inner cop to control. That is what makes him closer to vampires than he wants to think, and he must think about it and guard against it. It's the ever-present desire to do something that goes beyond the rules, and he knows that if he ever crosses the line, no matter how good the reason, he will become a bad cop. The addition of the Summoning Dark (?) was a problem but it was similar enough for his coping mechanism to be able to handle it.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I think the "inner dark side" of Vimes was present even before "Thud!" - see Night Watch (where it's called "the beast"), when he stops Young Sam from doing mischief to the torturer under the Unmentionable compound, and when he himself nearly does Carcer irredeemable mischief, near the end of the book ...

... but Young Sam was watching him, over thirty years.

When we break down, it all breaks down.

(pp. 358)

Night Watch, then as now, is still my favourite book of Terry's later period. It marks a break with his earlier books and becomes "darker" and more "philosophical", a side of Terry that we rarely see in his earlier books (except, perhaps, in Small Gods?). There are still gags, but they are - perhaps - deeper, discussed in greater length, and the books are richer for it.

 

[Molokov]

Perfect description, Tamar, you've gone a lot further than I did, and it's completely apt. Maybe Vimes doesn't like Vampires because he can see that darkness in himself, and it's just hard enough restraining his own darkness that he doesn't want to/gets angry at having to contain it in others.

 

[raisindot]

I don't agree with the Vimes/vampire analogy. DW Vampires are all about controlling other people emotionally and conforming to ancient rules. They're prefer not to use violence if they don't have to when exploiting people's minds and fears is far more effective. Vimes is not about controlling people. If everyrone in AM obeyed the laws and kept the public order all the time he'd resign. The "beast" within him is much closer to the chaotic carnage of werewolves. The entity that became "the beast" first showed up at the end of Jingo, when he was aiming his crossbow at the caliph. At that point, he knew that letting the caliph go would make all of his efforts meaningless. This liberating thought--kill the caliph and sacrifice himself--made the beast momentarily take over his rationale thought until Vetinari stepped in.

The beast made its first real appearance in The Fifth Elephant, when Vimes was in the woods and about to be torn apart by the werewolves. At that point, survival was impossible, so he let the beast take over, turning him into a mindless killing machine. He had killed people before, but never in orgiastic pleasure. In those situations, it was almost always a "them or me" situation.

But the appearance of the beast at the end of the werewolf fight made him fully realize that there was a part of him that fully enjoyed letting go of reason and become a crazy, lawless killer. When the beast appeared, he was no better than the werewolves or other crazy killers he was pursuing. Which was why after that point, all of his actions in TFE--including killing Wolfgang--were done in a way that created the illusion that he was following the Laws, even when he had to kill someone along the way.

 

[=Tamar]

Your'e right, the werewolf is a closer analogy for Vimes's inner beast.
Sir Terry once posted that he didn't see the appeal of vampires --what could possibly be sexy about having your throat ripped out? Of all the sentient species of Discworld, they (along with the much later mountain banshees) are the ones who think of humans as merely food.