SPOILERS Fred and Nobby **Spoilers**

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Tonyblack

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#1
I thought it might be fun to discuss some of the reoccurring characters from the Discworld books. I considered that the comedy double act of Fred Colon and Nobby Nobbs might be a good place to start.

BE WARNED - This is an open topic regarding ALL the Discworld books and therefore is very likely to contain SPOILERS. If you haven't read the books this may be a problem for your future enjoyment of the series.


So . . . more than any other characters that I can think of (including married ones) these two are very much a double act. No always, but usually, Pratchett uses them as a means of an every man's view of the situation. They are almost like Laurel and Hardy in the way they react to one another. Stupid Fred Colon, who thinks he is clever and stupid (in a different way) Nobby, who manages with a small comment to make Fred's views appear as racist, homophobic and bigoted as they really are.

What are your thoughts on these two? How have they grown or diminished throughout the series? And how does Terry use them as a narrative tool for his stories?
 

raisindot

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#2
I've always thought of them as the Rosencranz and Guildenstern of the Watch Books. Comic side characters who are supposed to add a bit of comic relief in interludes between the progression of the plots involving the main characters. Every now and they so something that moves a plot forward, but for the most part you could remove them from every book and the end results would probably be the same.

I think they were used best in Jingo, where they became comic foils to Vetinari, although Nobby's cross-dressing thing became a little bit stale after awhile.

I think they were totally wasted in The Fifth Elephant, where Pterry's rather clumsy lifting of The Caine Mutiny idea made those side-scenes tedious and really interrupted the flow of the book. A similar thing happened in Thud, where there was far too much of both of them (especially the museum scenes and the walks discussing Tawnee, which dragged).
 

Tonyblack

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#3
I was thinking of Thud! in particular, as that is the book that Mark Reads is currently reading.

Oddly, despite Fred's bigotry, he's not particularly unlikable. He's like the racist brother-in-law that you might have to put up with once in a while. It's almost an unconscious unpleasantness that is particularly satisfying with the events in Snuff. Nobby comes across as a much more likeable character in Thud!. Not only is he a foil to Fred's stupidity, but he also comes across as very open minded when it comes to such things as sex workers.
 

=Tamar

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May 20, 2012
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#4
They are so confirmed a pair that I recently saw someone say that Fred was in the TV-movie of Hogfather, when really it was Nobby and Constable Visit discussing the spirit of Hogswatch.

As raisindot pointed out, Fred and Nobby don't often actually do anything significant. (It is notable that in Hogfather, it's Nobby and Visit who are called on by Death to interfere in the match girl sequence.) They are observers, occasionally pressed into service to row or to get involved in traffic control. Anything more complex usually gets them into difficulty. That may be why Fred is not unlikable. He talks bigotry, but since he is too indolent to do much, he doesn't do anything physical about it. I don't recall offhand any incidents where his opinions led anyone else to commit bigoted action.
I'm not quite sure where, and the books are in another room, but I have a vague impression that at some point in the past, they traded roles and Fred was pointing out something Nobby hadn't thought through.
 

RathDarkblade

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#5
Tamar, was that in "Guards! Guards!"? The million-to-one thing? Carrot and Nobby try to make the odds exactly a million-to-one, and at one point they stuff a handkerchief into Fred's mouth. He spits it out when they realise that it's not exactly a million-to-one.

I'm afraid my reply will be long, but Colon and Nobby are two of my favourite characters, so I'll go into some depth. Here we go.

Colon.
Colon never struck me as racist. He's a very experienced copper and he knows the job. The trouble is that he's set in his ways - so when new coppers get promoted above him, he doesn't know how to cope. (Witness his remarks in MAA about dwarfs and trolls, for instance, or in FOC about golems. By the end of FOC, of course, there's a new golem constable - that ought to drive Colon crazy!)

However, despite his small-mindedness about other species, Colon never struck me as racist because:
a) he is too thick to realise whether he's being racist or not; and
b) he is too lazy to do anything racist.

Despite his nasty talk in FOC, however, we can easily see that Colon is out of his depth when he has the idea about knocking on doors and asking people if they have arsenic. What an idiot idea! Naturally, Colon gets in trouble very quickly, and it only gets worse. However, he does ultimately corroborate what Vimes already knows about the killer.

After the events of FOC, I don't blame Colon for thinking - as he does in J - that other coppers get promoted above him and Nobby, and that he and Nobby should do something about it. That leads to their "detectoring" work. *LOL* I honestly thought that the Colon-Nobby-Vetinari act was one of the best things I've ever read - not because of Nobby's cross-dressing (and we know that Nobby enjoys dressing up), but because of the dynamic between Colon and Vetinari, and the way that Nobby ultimately upstages Colon.

In TFE, Colon was definitely out of his depth. Both he and we know that he is not ready to be a captain, and he proves it in a few short scenes.

In Thud!, both Colon and Nobby set the plot in motion by investigating the crime in the museum. They react in much the same way as I expected them to - with wide-eyed stupidity - but their report encourages Vimes to look further into it.

I can't remember if they were in Snuff or in Raising Steam. However, both Colon and Nobby were in NW - both their present selves and their younger selves - and I thought they were generally spot on (especially Colon's small-mindedness about other species and Nobby's petty-thieving ways).

Nobby.
In G!G! and MAA, Nobby starts out as a petty thief who sometimes has good ideas. He is street-smart and good at getting out of trouble. He thinks small - small details, small rewards, small ideas (though sometimes good ones). Someone like Lord Rust might call him a "guttersnipe" or a "bottom feeder".

In FOC, Nobby's ideas about the world take a back seat to his tendency for petty thievery. He realises - far too late - that he's been made a patsy, although he doesn't know why. Fortunately for him, his instinct for self-preservation takes over.

In J, we see more of Nobby's instincts for self-preservation (when he tries to persuade Colon not to get in Leonard's Boat). However, this time around, Nobby is obviously smarter than Colon: he pokes holes in Colon's flimsy anti-Klatchian theories, he thinks that bringing home a Klatchian head and sticking up on a pub sign is "nasty", he moderates Colon's anti-Klatchian report, he finds out where the Klatchian army is, etc.

In TFE, both Colon and Nobby play a smaller role. Despite this, Nobby still comes off looking the smarter of the two (which isn't hard). Colon lets power go to his head; Nobby tries (and fails) to get him to stop.

Summary.
I can see why Colon & Nobby reminded Tony of Laurel & Hardy. They reminded me of L&H, too - at least a little. C&N share with L&H their physical qualities (one's fat, one's thin - and they always get into trouble through their stupidity). ;)

However, Colon and Nobby reminded me of another great British institution - Wooster and Jeeves (though much less classy, obviously), with Colon taking Wooster's part and Nobby taking Jeeves's. Just as Wooster constantly talks loftily about himself, and Jeeves constantly knows better than his master, so Colon sometimes belittles Nobby (because Colon is a sergeant and Nobby is a corporal), and Nobby often knows better than Colon about things.

They also reminded a little about Blackadder and Baldrick - at least, in the first series - and for the same reason. Blackadder is a gormless idiot Duke; Baldrick is the smart servant who gets his master out of trouble. In the second, third and fourth series, Blackadder became progressively smarter and Baldrick progressively dumber, but the "stupid master, smart servant" dynamic merely shifted to other characters. In series 2, 3 and 4, Blackadder was always the "smart servant" - to Queen Elizabeth, the Prince Regent and General Melchett, respectively. :)

So it is with Colon. In G!G!, Colon is smart in comparison to later books (he organises a street protest against the dragon, which fails; he tries to play the role of Bard the Bowman, and fails). However, what's important is that Colon has enough courage to even try and do something about the dragon. In the later books, Colon is insecure because - in his mind - he is simply trying to hold on to his job, and he's facing competition from all the other species (and complains about that). By "Jingo", Colon has become so insecure that he has to talk down to Nobby: "I'm the superior officer!" / "No you're not, we're in plain clothes!" / "Well, I'm the superior civilian!" etc. :) Needless to say, Nobby instantly makes fun of Colon's self-importance.

Anyway, I've written more than enough. What does everyone else think, hmm? :)
 

=Tamar

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Colon always has pulled rank when he had the chance. I don't know if he's smart enough to realize that he only keeps his job because he knew Vimes when, especially after the debacle of TFE. (Vetinari knew exactly what would happen there, and he did it to take Carrot down a peg, but that deserves its own discussion.)
Both Nobby and Colon are in Snuff. It's an important book for both of them. Nobby may actually have his species identified at last, and Colon finally gets some character development, albeit through a stupid, greedy move.
It's been a long time since I read RS, but I think that's the one where Colon has been promoted sideways, to get him out of the way while letting his peculiar street-knowledge talents be useful.
 

RathDarkblade

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#7
Oh? What happens in Snuff that makes it so important for them? *curious* I can't remember. But Colon being stupid and greedy - well, that's Colon! *LOL*

I also don't remember what happens in RS - how does Colon get promoted "sideways"?

(He certainly got promoted - twice - in TFE! Once by Vetinari, and once by a Watch pigeon.) ;-P
 

Tonyblack

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#8
RathDarkblade said:
Oh? What happens in Snuff that makes it so important for them? *curious* I can't remember. But Colon being stupid and greedy - well, that's Colon! *LOL*

I also don't remember what happens in RS - how does Colon get promoted "sideways"?

(He certainly got promoted - twice - in TFE! Once by Vetinari, and once by a Watch pigeon.) ;-P
Fred got to experience what it was like to be persecuted minority. It may have changed his ways for good.
 

RathDarkblade

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#9
Oh, OK. I don't think I remember what happens there, exactly - I must make a point of re-reading RS.

Incidentally, speaking of Colon, I founds two things on google:

From Reddit: A statue of Fred Colon. Or maybe it's Colonesqu from TFE? Very lifelike, except it's in bronze.



From Sky News (sorry): Scrap Metal Thief Steals an Entire Iron Bridge (Oct 2012) Yikes.

Then again, "The Daily Mail" reported a similar story from Russia (January 2008), "The Guardian" reported it from Turkey (March 2013), and "The Trinidad Guardian" (what?) reports it from Trinidad (April 2012).

What does all this have to do with Colon? I say, let's put Fred Colon on the job! You can say what you like about Colon, but bridges in A-M never get stolen! ;)
 

raisindot

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#10
I think Pterry had a love-hate relationship with Colon. On the one hand, until RS at least, he comes off as a reactionary, bigoted, oafish, cowardly fool--a representative of the far too many Colon-like coppers, security guards and other so-called public servants who should have gone extinct with the dinosaurs but hang around just to preserve their pensions or because being retired would be unthinkable. While not every nation has a Nobby equivalent in its police force, almost every one has many Colonesques.

And Colon IS a racist (or, rather, a speciesit). Just because he doesn't act on his bigotry (mainly because he's too afraid to confront the species he dislikes) doesn't make him any less a bigot. He's the Archie Bunker style of bigot--ignorant and reactionary, but backs down and grudgingly admits that some of the "lower species" (like werewolves and trolls) have definite advantages.

But Pterry being Pterry, while as the series progressed he liked to place Colon in situations where he could be humiliated, fooled, and taken down a peg, he was was far too nice (and far too skilled) to make Colon a completely useless character. Even Vimes sees the value Colon brings as (along with Nobby) a source of information from the street, even if Colon only gets it overhearing conversations hiding behind a lightpost.

In the audiobooks, I think Briggs' voicing of Colon is far superior to Planer's. While Plan does brilliantly capture Colon's cowardice and stupidity at times, Briggs nails these along with Colon's pomposity, bitterness, and, yes, fatness.
 

Tonyblack

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#11
I agree - it's a testament to Terry's skilful writing that he manages to make Fred a despicable bigot as well as a much loved character. I think that has a lot to do with the Nobby effect of managing to focus Fred's stupidity and defuse it for the nonsense it is. A lesser writer would have probably gotten rid of Fred after a couple of books - but not Terry.
 

RathDarkblade

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#12
Exactly. I just love Colon-and-Nobby's conversation outside the Klatchian's Head pub in "Jingo" - both before and after they'd actually been to Klatch. *LOL*

"Bit ... nasty, sticking a bloke's head on a pike for a pub sign." (Nobby, first time)

"No, Nobby! Spoils of war, right? Teach him not to do it again." (Colon, first time)

"It's just a head ... and it's part of our heritage and such... well, let's go drink somewhere else. The beer here is frankly piss." (Colon, second time)
 

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