SPOILERS Carpe Jugulum Discussion *spoilers*

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Jul 25, 2008
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#21
A small bit of catching up with other comments. I quite agree, Jeff and Pooh that the scene in the caves is extremely powerful, though I don’t think that Nanny knowingly gives her the blood idea—though Terry has undoubtedly thought of it by this time. And I think that Granny is disturbed and worried by her apparent failure to be invited to the christening. Granny knows that she’s not a “people person”, and it’s clear from her first appearance (prior to making the delivery of the stillborn child—a choice she makes) that she’s looking for her invitation. It’s a mark of respect that is due to her.

But the real passage showing how disturbing it is to her not to have been asked (apparently) begins with her recollection of her judging of the child murderer—and her belief that the burden of making the hard choices, as all witches do, is particularly heavy on her because she is called for the “hard cases.” However, the imagery of that passage strongly suggests that she is also beginning to feel the impact of the probing of Count Magpyr.

As to the ax—it’s not when they start out that Granny stresses the importance of Oats having the ax and being willing to use it when necessary. Its importance in dealing with vampires is brought up by Granny before she goes into her struggle to maintain her own soul. She commands him to have a sharpened stake and ax to behead her if she wakes up as a vampire.

Granny couldn’t have beaten the vampires without the care and help of Oats. She finds her way back into the world through Oats’ prayers which wriggle like little golden fish toward the light and by the phoenix’s flashes of light which wink out if she looks at it too long. It seems clear to me that she would have died, at least twice, on the journey, but for Oats’ care for her. Had she died, the best they could hoped for was that Igor’s Old Master could solve the problem. And Igor doesn’t know anything about Granny’s power when he summons The Old Master. The “Weatherwaxing” might or might not have worked had she died before she confronted them. It took Oats as well as Granny to deal with the vampires.

My problem with the ending is with Granny’s inability ever to acknowledge her debt to Oats. He thanks her the next morning for the transformation she has helped him achieve, but all she can do is smile at him then and on their return to ask the Lancrestians to give him respect. Granny is unable to acknowledge, ever, that she would have failed but for him. She circles, as an eagle, above the service, and she’s obviously had a word with Nanny and Magrat but her last action is to change her sign to read “I STILL ATE’NT DEAD” .

It’s true that Granny has her own little ways, but even though Oats is not a witch, she owes him and I found it disturbing that Terry didn’t deal more specifically with that.
 

poohcarrot

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Sep 13, 2009
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#22
To say that Granny didn't repay him, I think is wrong. She repaid him with the only currency she deals in - respect.

At the beginning, Oats was objectionable, wet, naive, and derided for his beliefs. Because of Granny, he grew up as a person and he became respected. All the people went to his service at the end because of what he had done for Granny. Granny herself, doesn't want thanks for all the times she helps people, she only wants respect.

Granny wants people to work things out for themselves. Oats should have been able to work out for himself that Granny appreciated his help.

And also she couldn't go to the service at the end for two reasons;
Firstly she was knackered after having nearly died the day before.
Secondly as a mark of respect, she didn't want to steal the spotlight from Oats.

PS I did say that Nanny accidently gave Granny the plan about the blood. :rolleyes:
 

Jan Van Quirm

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#23
poohcarrot said:
Granny wants people to work things out for themselves. Oats should have been able to work out for himself that Granny appreciated his help.
And also she couldn't go to the service at the end for two reasons;
Firstly she was knackered after having nearly died the day before.
Secondly as a mark of respect, she didn't want to steal the spotlight from Oats.
Agree all of that smartypants ;) except..... :laugh:

He knew, when she made him take the axe (as Sharlene says because she couldn't be sure that her 'turning' would fail) before they left Lancre that she desperately needed his help and they started to play the 'I don't need help at all but I'll come along just to make sure you're OK' game'. He allowed her to do that because he was appalled at what was happening and simply didn't know what to do because the Book of Om had nothing useful to say about Witches or Vampires except burn/kill the whole bally lot of 'em.

As in life it's not as simple as good fighting evil - it's about how to discern that there's a difference. I'm not sure, but did Pterry write Good Omens with Neil Gaiman around this time? It's the same in there although he comes to it in the other direction, because there's really very little difference between Aziraphale and Crowley and they find themselves in alliance against the faction they should sympathise with. So this is also about choosing wisely and why it is Witches who have to guard the edges. ;)

As pooh says :eek: she paid the highest respect to Oats by not going to his service (because she was completely knackered) in her true form - although in a way the eagle was symbolic of the ultimate acknowledgment of her own beliefs/honour after pulling off the ultimate mastery of Borrowing - Borrowing her own blood to defeat the Vampires. When she borrowed the swarm in Lords & Ladies she thought that was the ultimate, but to 'borrow' your own blood tops that. That's why she's so weak, because she's not in her own body anymore to all intents and purposes - and also why the Vampires take time to succumb (in Escrow) to her manipulation in their super-sentient symbiotic swarm... ;)
 

raisindot

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Oct 1, 2009
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#24
poohcarrot said:
If that's what you were thinking, then you'd be thinking wrongly. So obviously Granny's headology worked on you too! :laugh:

Carpe Jugulum - page 301 SB said:
"Just so long as you understand that I didn't AX you to come along and I don't need your help."
"AX?"
"Ask, then, slipped into a bit of rural there".
(Oats thinks for a while, gets off the mule goes into the forge and returns with the axe)
"You're learnin', said Granny.
Oh yeah...that did go right by me. Probably because this round I was listening to the audiobook whilst running, instead of reading it.

But even though Granny convinced Oats to bring the ax, it still doesn't prove that she intended for Oats to have it for any other purpose than killing Granny should she succumb to the 'darkness' of the vampire curse. At that time, the beginning of their journey, there's no real evidence that she believed that he was good for anything other than helping her get to the castle. I don't think she even thought Oats had any potential or value at all until she discovered that he had burned his Book of Om. That really began to change her thinking about him.

J-I-B
 

raisindot

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#25
swreader said:
My problem with the ending is with Granny’s inability ever to acknowledge her debt to Oats. He thanks her the next morning for the transformation she has helped him achieve, but all she can do is smile at him then and on their return to ask the Lancrestians to give him respect. Granny is unable to acknowledge, ever, that she would have failed but for him. She circles, as an eagle, above the service,
Much as I find myself shocked to agree with Pooh, he is right here. Granny is incapable of direct gratitude to those who help her. Part of being Granny Weatherwax is a firm belief that she doesn't need anyone's help. This, with Oats, it's her little actions--the smile, her compelling of the Lancreans to let Oats conduct a service, the eagle--that let him know, more than any kind of thank you note, how important his help was. It's clear by that point that while everyone may not know the details of Oats' journey with Granny, that they are keenly aware that without his help Granny wouldn't have made it. For a man like Oats, who struggles with his own spirituality, this is the best kind of thank you Granny could have given.

J-I-B
 

poohcarrot

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#26
swreader said:
As to the ax—it’s not when they start out that Granny stresses the importance of Oats having the ax and being willing to use it when necessary. Its importance in dealing with vampires is brought up by Granny before she goes into her struggle to maintain her own soul. She commands him to have a sharpened stake and ax to behead her if she wakes up as a vampire.
She had woken up and she hadn't turned into a vampire. Therefore she wasn't going to change.

They were about to set off and Oats didn't have the axe, Granny subtley reminded him, because she knew it'd be used in killing vampires - not her.

If the reason Oats taking the axe was to possibly kill her, why didn't she mention the sharpened stake too?
Why did she mention the axe in such a cryptic way?
Why do we spell axe differently? :laugh:
 

poohcarrot

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#27
There is one thing that everybody seems to be forgetting.

ON DISCWORLD, WITCHES KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THEY ARE GOING TO DIE!

Therefore Granny KNEW she wasn't going to die on the journey.
So she also KNEW that Oats would keep her alive.

Therefore, suggesting to Oats to bring the axe couldn't possibly have been for her own killing, because she would have known about it, and it didn't happen, so she knew beforehand that it wouldn't have happened. 8)

(Hang on to your hats! I have an absolutely stonky theory brewing that I will deliver shortly :laugh: )
 

Jan Van Quirm

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#30
They needed the axe whether she'd resisted the turning or not surely? It took a while for her blood to 'infect' the Vampires didn't it? It's the edges again, a literal sharp edge.

Nanny accidentally triggered how to resolve it but Granny can't always know if she's 'right' or not, like with the child murderer. She makes decisions but she can't know for sure they're always the right one which is why she's always interrogating herself on which way to go and doing that for the people who can't make that type of decision. You need to understand the 'grey' more than the black and white and see the least bad and most good to weigh your decision. The child murderer wasn't 'all bad' and some people can remember the man who was OK because they didn't know what he was capable of. Death shows up at the still birth where the midwife doesn't know what to do - the child is already dead but is the mother going to die as well? Who has Death come for? Just the baby or the mother/wife as well? Will the husband be left with no one? Granny doesn't know that does she?

So even Granny is plagued with doubts, but she knows she IS good at making decisions and trusting herself. She saw a way to pull defeat out of the inevitability zone and a way to neutralise the Count's advantage because she did know that he would want her cowed and under his influence. Therefore she opted for the not 'million to one' chance but a gamble which might be a victory if she could pull it off. She chose that because it was the only choice she had - she knew they would be defeated if she didn't do it, so no option but to do it, knowing that she could still be defeated. Either way Death showing up for her wasn't an option because she wouldn't die whatever happened. THAT was the certainty. But she would possibly have been a vampire so she didn't know for sure, until her blood began to take effect on them in Escrow and when Agnes realised the meaning of her not being turned by Vlad.

From that point yes, Granny knows she's got them for the moment at least because her blood has weakened them so much - however she's also at the very limits of her own strength in keeping her borrowing on top of their nature because it can only be kept going so long before she'll get like Esk when she borrowed the eagle for too long...? The natural form reasserts itself eventually and will take the borrower with it - so she's actually still in danger of being turned if the others don't take advantage of the temporary effects of her borrowing whilst she can still stay in control of the Vampires. So even at the castle there was still a chance of the Vampires getting their usual act together again... :laugh:

So no, I don't think she knew she would win because she couldn't keep on winning indefinitely. All she was doing was buying the others enough time by staying on top just long enough to let all the others see to exploiting the temporary weakness she imposed on the Vampires. It's always far braver to fight when you're not sure of victory and this is why Granny has to be hard on herself and her instincts, because if she thinks she's always going to win then that's actually a weakness isn't it? To be truly victorious you have to be scared of losing everything, else you don't try hard enough - and you can then lose your own 'edge'... ;)
 

raisindot

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Oct 1, 2009
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#31
poohcarrot said:
swreader said:
As to the ax—it’s not when they start out that Granny stresses the importance of Oats having the ax and being willing to use it when necessary.
She had woken up and she hadn't turned into a vampire. Therefore she wasn't going to change.

They were about to set off and Oats didn't have the axe, Granny subtley reminded him, because she knew it'd be used in killing vampires - not her.
Why did she mention the axe in such a cryptic way?
Why do we spell axe differently? :laugh:
Have to go back to the book, but wasn't the first thing Granny did when she "woke" in the smith was to tell Oats to always have the ax(e) near his side? This was even before they began their journey.

In case, since Granny was not a vampire, it makes MORE sense that she told Oats to bring the ax(e) as a defense against her. After all, if she thought Oats would be the Fearless Vampire Killer, she would have told him to bring along a stake and hammer. Those things, not axes, kill vampires. But, if along the way Granny had "turned evil" in some way other than becoming a vampire, an ax(e) would have been an effective tool for getting rid of her.

Thus, Granny had Oats bring the ax(e) along for his own protection against her, not the vampires.

:)

J-I-B
 

raisindot

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#32
poohcarrot said:
There is one thing that everybody seems to be forgetting.

ON DISCWORLD, WITCHES KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THEY ARE GOING TO DIE!

Therefore Granny KNEW she wasn't going to die on the journey.
So she also KNEW that Oats would keep her alive.
The nice about narrative myths is that they can be easily tossed aside, as they were in both in Lords and Ladies (LL) and in Carpe Jugulum (CJ)

[Minor spoiler]

Near the end of LL, Nanny and Magrat see that Granny has arranged her hut to be ready for the next witch in case she doesn't win her fight against the Queen. But she also makes sure Nanny opens her "box" to read the "I ATENT DEAD" message. So, it's clear, even when Granny says at the end that she was always sure she'd win, Nanny knows that this wasn't true.

In CJ, the fact the Death keeps on appearing at various times during Oats' and Granny's journey indicates that even he is not sure whether Granny will make it or not--he's having a "Near Granny" experience. If Death knew that Granny would not die, he never would have appeared at all--unless we want to believe that Granny knows more about the exact day and time she will die than Death does.

J-I-B
 

Jan Van Quirm

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#33
Jeff - I like the idea of a 'near Granny' experience for Death on the secondary potential causes of death along the way which is why she really needed Oats, to help keep her going whilst she still weak from blood loss and get her to castle on time to make sure the others took full advantage of her further diluting her blood whilst she drank 'tea' and keep up the pressure to maintain control of the borrowing whislt the rest finished them all off - and of course they brought the phoenix with them too... ;)

Jan Van Quirm said:
She saw a way to pull defeat out of the inevitability zone and a way to neutralise the Count's advantage because she did know that he would want her cowed and under his influence. Therefore she opted for the not 'million to one' chance but a gamble which might be a victory if she could pull it off. She chose that because it was the only choice she had - she knew they would be defeated if she didn't do it, so no option but to do it, knowing that she could still be defeated. Either way Death showing up for her wasn't an option because she wouldn't die whatever happened. THAT was the certainty. But she would possibly have been a vampire so she didn't know for sure, until her blood began to take effect on them in Escrow and when Agnes realised the meaning of her not being turned by Vlad.
 

raisindot

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#34
Jan Van Quirm said:
...whilst she drank 'tea' and keep up the pressure to maintain control of the borrowing whislt the rest finished them all off - and of course they brought the phoenix with them too... ;)
I realize after re-reading your comment that I think we were saying the same thing.

:)

Do you think Granny actually drank the tea? In her confrontation with the Magpyrs, it's not clear whether ever really drank from the cup she had brought with her. By not drinking the tea, she could maintain control over the vampires by mentally reminding them of their new addiction to this most "unnatural" (to a vampire) substance.

J-I-B
 

Jan Van Quirm

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#35
I'm pretty sure she didn't drink anything in the Magpyr castle unless it was the dirty water. I don't think it mattered what she drank really - after all they really did drink her blood back in Lancre. What they did take in with her blood was her spirit or whatever she sends out of her body when she goes a-borrowing.

So this really was her ultimate feat of borrowing because not only did she borrow herself effectively but she also managed to stay conscious instead of having to close down and put the 'I ain't dead' sign up. I think that was because she didn't have to go outside of her own body as such, but it is yet another reason why she needed Oats around because of the effort it took to stay awake along with the effort of moving about. She really couldn't have done it without him (or Agnes) as it had to be someone that could resist the trance state that the Vampires were using to subdue Verence and Magrat etc. ;)
 

Willem

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Jan 11, 2010
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#36
Haven't read any of the posts yet, saving that for slow work day next week :)

However, I will say that I've got mixed feelings about this book. Storywise, it's a bit too much like Lords and Ladies for my taste - thing invading Lancre with Granny having to chase them out. On the other hand, it's got some amazing interactions, especially Oats and Granny.


More soon, after I've read the other posts.
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
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Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#37
Sorry Pooh, but everything you said in your first post about Granny giving him respect as a reward is simply not supported in the book. Granny had never met Oats before she confronts the vampires at the castle in Lancre—she has no opinion of him because she’s not aware of him. She can’t acknowledge him, as he realizes, because the way she keeps going in this tremendous struggle is (as he thinks)”…she needed someone to beat. If she didn’t have someone to beat, she’d probably beat herself.” Granny’s strength (and her weakness) is that she has to be the best. And that means she cannot acknowledge – to the person who helps her – the need for help.

Jan, I think you make a good point about Granny’s insistence on knowing the difference between good and evil. This is something she’s very clear about, though she’s terribly tempted by the evil in herself. As was true in Witches Abroad, and again here—she knows who she is and what she believes (difficult as that is to accomplish). When she and Oats discuss the nature of sin, and Oats says it’s not a black or white issue, Granny contradicts him.

“There’s no grays, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”

Jeff, essentially we agree—Granny is incapable of acknowledging her need for help. She can maintain her control (as she does when she walks to the stable) and acts as if it cost her nothing—but it does. She first tells him to get the ax (and the stake & hammer) before she goes into her “trance/battle with the Vampire blood” because she’s not sure what she’ll be when she wakes up. And she’s not sure that she will win until she actually defeats the vampires at the other castle. That’s reflected in the fact that for a minute, in front of the castle when she comes to again, she seems to have red eyes. And it explains her comment to him when the Phoenix appears—“To the fire we come at last, Mister Oats. This is where we both find out.” If she hadn't overcome the vampire effect, she'd have died, as would he if he were not a good man.

Granny tells Oats what it would be to believe, really believe in a god when she says that what true faith means is “Sacrificin’ your own life, one day at a time, to the flame, declarin’ the truth of it, workin’ for it, breathin’ the soul of it. That’s religion. Anything else is just . . . is just bein’ nice.”

And Oats doesn’t need her thanks because he has found his own way—has decided to go back to Uberwald, to bring light to dark places with his new religious symbol – the double-headed ax. (As confirmed in Unseen Academicals where Nutt knows that the ax is now named “Forgiveness.”)

Terry’s strength as a writer is that he makes Granny what she is—and she’s not perfect. She’s incapable of acknowledging her need for others or thanking them for their help—whether that help is provided by Nanny, Magrat, or Oats. It’s just me that would have liked to have her acknowledge his contribution to what she has done. But he no longer needs that acknowledgement. He knows who he is now, and where he needs to go.
 

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