SPOILERS Going Postal Discussion *Spoilers*

[Tonyblack]

He's making it up to make Moist a more sympathetic character. We know very little about Moist's early life other than he was brought up by his grandfather who bred dogs.

Going back to an earlier post - in part this book is about second chances. Vetinari gives Moist the chance to do something good with his life and while the Patrician is an unlikely angel, he does the job quite nicely.

Let's make no mistake here, Moist had two choices - he either shaped up or he was a dead man. He was useful to Vetinari in that the Patrician wanted to get to the heart of the corruption in the Grand Trunk (he'd already tried using his clerks and business men with no success) and Moist was the man for the job.

Question - do you seriously think that Vetinari thought that Gilt would take the job he was offered at the end of the book?

 

[Sjoerd3000]

Well knowing Vetinari he should have known that Gilt wouldn´t take the job but that´s no reason not to offer him a choice (and it saved a bit of rope). Afterall you can always give someone hope.

 

[poohbcarrot]

"4 miles an hour is 672 miles a week".

4 x 24 x 7 = 672

4 x 24 x 8 = 768

You are not taking into account that the golems have a day off a week.

Nice try Tony, but Vetinari says, "And Mr Pump, Postmaster General, does not stop" (not my italics!)

However, if there were 21 hours to a Discworld then;

4 x 21 x 8 = 672

Unfortunately, at the end of Guards Guards Carrot says "12 o'clock and all is well"

So there can't be only 21 hours. 8)

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

See - that's why I think Moist is similar to Vetinari in the manipulation department - except Moist isn't as good at it, possibly because he's still on a huge learning curve to start looking at the bigger picture. Hence my remarks about him being self-obsessed most of the time and only interested in saving his own skin, in the beginning certainly.

The reason that I say Vetinari is similar to Moist (and pooh's lovely little background fairy story for Moist will support this somewhat ) is that Vetinari is actually an impoverished trained killer come 'good' (even if he didn't graduate from the Assassin's Guild and never killed anyone professionally as it were...) due to the interest of his Aunt 'turning' him onto the path of power and into an absolute grandmaster politician and strategist.

Gilt for a time is 'superior' to Vetinari in terms of ruthlessness, power and influence in that he's like the Vetinari who never came good and this is why I think Vetinari was calmly afraid of Gilt's potential to seriously screw A-M over and why he chose to 'tempt' Moist - an embryonic Vetinari/Gilt (depending on his choice and his conscience), to the path of righteousness and in the process become a clever useful manipulator instead of a clever amoral one.

It's a case of a masterly ex-thief (of lives) setting a promising but strictly 'small time' thief to catch a monstrous killer thief.

Notice also I use the term of thief not 'con artist' for Moist - con artists are merely 'posh' and contemptible thieves who of course steal money but also trust and dreams in broad daylight and right under your nose. The 'diamonds' are a good touch though...

 

[Dotsie]

'ere Dotsie! The last 2 pages of chapter 6 don't 'arf remind me of you!

Cheeky! It reminds me of me as well though... Till I met Mr Dotsie and then I said 'yes please, dinner would be lovely'

 

[poohbcarrot]

I think Vetinari was calmly afraid of Gilt's potential to seriously screw A-M over

Disagree 100% with you there, Jan.

As soon as Vetinari met Gilt, Vetinari not only knew he would beat him, but also knew why he would beat him, and he knew how he would beat him.

I'll post my reasons soon.

 

[Tonyblack]

Vetinari could have gone in and arrested everyone and had them executed. He doesn't need to obey any rules or laws because, as he mentions several times in the book - he is a tyrant.

But it suits him to let Moist go in and expose them - that way he can go in and take over without being criticised. People are left feeling justice has been served rather than Government has interfered with trade.

And as we see throughout the book - Vetinari like playing games.

 

[poohbcarrot]

And as we see throughout the book - Vetinari like playing games.

This is my favourite bit of the book. It's so subtle, it's absolutely brilliant.

The first time Vetinari meets Gilt and they're talking about Thud, Vetinari tells Gilt he is ruthless and going to lose because he will be careless. He is going to be careless because he doesn't know his own weaknesses. He doesn't know his own weaknesses because he can't play the Dwarves. Gilt's description of the dwarves is an exact description of Moist.

"We should play a game", said Gilt. "I have a rather nice board myself. I play the troll side, for preference."
"Ruthless, intially outnumbered, inevitably defeated in the hands of a careless player?", said Vetinari.
"Indeed. Just as the dwarves rely on guile, feint, and swift changes of position. A man can learn all of an opponent's weaknesses on that board," said Gilt.
"Really?", said Vetinari, raising his eyebrows. "Should he not be trying to learn his own?"

Guile = "The use of clever but dishonest behaviour in order to deceive people."
Feint = "A movement that is intended to make your opponent think you are going to do one thing when you are really going to do something else."

If Gilt knew how to play Thud correctly (ie; first play trolls, then play dwarves), he might not have lost to Moist.

To Vetinari, it's all just one big game.

 

[Tonyblack]

Perfectly put! Yes, you really do have to go back and reread Terry's books to see these things.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

I think Vetinari was calmly afraid of Gilt's potential to seriously screw A-M over

Disagree 100% with you there, Jan.

As soon as Vetinari met Gilt, Vetinari not only knew he would beat him, but also knew why he would beat him, and he knew how he would beat him.

I'll post my reasons soon.

So flippin' literal Next thing you'll be convincing yourself of is that Vetinari's some super-computing Golem or 'Mentat-alike' from Dune *puffs*

'Calmly afraid' does not mean Vetinari's shaking in his boots but it equally and certainly doesn't mean he can't feel fear because if he did then he'd be the Terminator ,because he couldn't appreciate threats in terms of a human being and therefore his strategy vis a vis ruling A-M would always be flawed.

Vetinari, like Moist and absolutely unlike Gilt is a people person but a very, very shrewd and dispassionate one because he can put emotion aside and so uses his skill rationally in his style of manipulation to predict and know what people's moves will be - and yes of course he plays games - that's the nature of politics in the multi-verse after all.

Where Vetinari excels is in assessing problems from all sides and in the Grand Trunk scenario he is well aware of Gilt's shortcomings, but also that he could win at the stage where Vetinari takes a gamble in putting Moist (the dwarf yes ) into play because up until that point all his usual gambits haven't been paying off because he wasn't using the right spies/agent provocateur/pawns.

How does 'worried' sit with you? - that is perhaps the word I should have used along with calm, but the other thing that Vetinari's good at is trusting in himself and his abilities. At that first meeting Gilt has the upper hand and knows it and so does Vetinari. That's why he's the best and knows when and who to play and is never, never careless. But that doesn't mean he can't feel the odd tinge of anxiety - humans have hormonal and emotional stimuli for a reason and thats why the thought of robots/Golems/Terminators are so scary because they only have software and irrefutable logic. They don't have impulse or irrational spontaneity. Vetinari in that respect is 'Golemic' because he never loses control of his emotions but he does knows how that feels even if he doesn't act on those impulses - he gets someone who does instead - Moist in this case.

Your reasons are impeccable and correct - but you're wrong about Vetinari being a block of wood emotionally and/or intellectually.

 

[mspanners]

Emmmm...... Gilt, I think Vetinari was hoping for a result but He needed a lever on Him, that is why He always offers the door to prospective people.

IF they take the job then they are in His pocket for good, take the door and that's the end of them, better to have a cunning man under you control than free to threaten your position, either way He had to do something with Gilt.

I think He was hopeful, without Gilt His next choice is Moist and I think He wanted Him free to concentrate on the Past Office.

Vetinari runs the show.... no doubts.

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Moist DID go and open the door and look down and drop his "spoon" gift from the jail to see how far it was down before coming to the conclusion that just like the jail cell block, the Offer of Freedom is much better sport than allowing you to Have freedom. That part before the hanging is important in how you view Moist. He didn't react badly, when the guards came in cheering him.

Vetinari shows some mortal traits, as in Jingo with the sudden intake of breath and general running, hopping, skipping the traps to get back to Leonard Da Quirm's room to stop and catch his breath and open the door to ask "What did you just say?"

Gilt was soo smart that he just chose the door in the end like a Fik Troll.

Very good quote tho about learning one's Own foibles before assuming you are simply "All That AND a Bag of Crisps" That was my ex-husband's favorite saying... Always be aware of your shortcomings... But, he meant it as a way of controlling others.

mumblemumbleshould'vejustkilledhimmumblemumblemumble

 

[Danny B]

First of all, I'm sorry to interject with something completely off topic, but in honour of Tina's 888th post, I'd like to place a link to This Picture.

I'd also like to chip in with the discussion on whether or not Moist can have any moral authority in the story, due to his despicable and reprehensible actions in the past.

As someone with a less than perfect moral record myself, I like to believe he can. Initially, Moist treats his "appointment" as just another con job; trying to get people to believe he's a good and trustworthy person. Over the course of the novel, I think this gives way to something much more real, Moist trying an even bigger con. Trying to convince himself he's a good and trustworthy person.

I also believe Moist is punished for his crimes, although not in a conventional manner. Vetinari makes him famous; removing his anonymity, his ability to blend into the crowd and just be "the bloke with an honest face", removing his primary weapon of deceit and neutering his ability to perpetuate further thefts. There's also the fact that Vetinari puts him to work in a job that has killed multiple people before Moist, many of them better trained to deal with that danger in a physical sense. I honestly don't think Vetinari expects Moist to succeed, or even to survive. He simply wishes to make his death useful, allowing Vetinari to put one of his - no doubt many - alternate plans into action effectively. Moist is put into a position of possible death, versus certain death. All through the novel the noose is still very much around his neck and even at the end isn't truly removed, merely set aside for future use. I don't think Moist is free, merely trapped in a very large prison.

Moral complexity is something Terry excels at, often putting stereotypically "good" acts into the hands of bad people - see the Fairy Godmother in WA -, as well as making bad characters his main heroes, - see Sam Vimes on first appearance; a drunkard, happy to let the city go to wrack and ruin around him while he drinks himself into an early grave -. I don't think Moist is quite so much a "shell" character, as the Ur form of a character with much greater development to come. Both Granny Weatherwax and Vimes were faintly shallow characters with little other purpose than somewhere to hang the plot when they first appeared.

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Now, there's a curious squid I would Not want to meet on a dock... omg What on Disc is that?

Edit: Doh, Oct Oct Oct... lol

 

[poohbcarrot]

Your reasons are impeccable and correct - but you're wrong about Vetinari being a block of wood emotionally and/or intellectually.

That's cheating!

You can't argue me with me about something I never said

I love Vetinari. He is one of my top 5 favourite characters. In GP he's wonderful, possibly even the best character.

(Actually, I've just re-read your post and your last paragraph isn't arguing with me at all. You are actually arguing with your own penultimate paragraph. )

 

[poohbcarrot]

Chapter 9

"That (Mr Pump) don't frighten me!" said Jim. "They ain't allowed to hurt folks!"
"Wrong", said Moist. "Probably dead wrong."

............

"Right, that's it!" Jim roared, shaking his brother away. Mr Pump's fists raised instantly.

(*starts humming Guns & Roses theme from Terminator*)

 

[Dotsie]

Chapter 9

"That (Mr Pump) don't frighten me!" said Jim. "They ain't allowed to hurt folks!"
"Wrong", said Moist. "Probably dead wrong."

............

"Right, that's it!" Jim roared, shaking his brother away. Mr Pump's fists raised instantly.

(*starts humming Guns & Roses theme from Terminator*)

Now I don't even know what you're on about He's still being told what to do by a government official, isn't he?

Except now it seems that Mspanners thinks that Vetinari might be God

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

That's cheating!

You can't argue me with me about something I never said

I love Vetinari. He is one of my top 5 favourite characters. In GP he's wonderful, possibly even the best character.

(Actually, I've just re-read your post and your last paragraph isn't arguing with me at all. You are actually arguing with your own penultimate paragraph. )

This one?

How does 'worried' sit with you? - that is perhaps the word I should have used along with calm, but the other thing that Vetinari's good at is trusting in himself and his abilities. At that first meeting Gilt has the upper hand and knows it and so does Vetinari. That's why he's the best and knows when and who to play and is never, never careless. But that doesn't mean he can't feel the odd tinge of anxiety - humans have hormonal and emotional stimuli for a reason and thats why the thought of robots/Golems/Terminators are so scary because they only have software and irrefutable logic. They don't have impulse or irrational spontaneity. Vetinari in that respect is 'Golemic' because he never loses control of his emotions but he does knows how that feels even if he doesn't act on those impulses - he gets someone who does instead - Moist in this case.

You said he wasn't afraid at all because he knew he was going to win all the way along? Didn't you?

I think Vetinari was calmly afraid of Gilt's potential to seriously screw A-M over

Disagree 100% with you there, Jan.

As soon as Vetinari met Gilt, Vetinari not only knew he would beat him, but also knew why he would beat him, and he knew how he would beat him......

Yes you did. As in you disagreed 100% that Vetinari could be calmly afraid?

What I actually said was that Vetinari was 'calmly afraid' - later 'reduced' to worried/anxious (because those are forms of fear too for people who don't have to be constantly macho and be the 'Big I am' - like Gilt). Vetinari, like most flesh and blood creatures can be worried/calmly afraid about a situation but not give into his concerns to the point where it clouds his judgment

Made it easier for you to see the bits that you didn't want to reread properly by marking them in blue. What I'm sayiing is that Vetinari is human and he cares for the city - he serves the city best by remaining detached and analytical to the point where he has conquered his feelings even though he will still have them and uses them to make informed choices and off the wall thinking to achieve a win, often win-win as in this book he also acquires and moulds a person who can also play games in a different way to him and has him on side as yet another weapon/tool to keep AM on course.

I occasionally think that you can argue like a Jesuit but you do need more practice. Happy to help you out for as long as it takes...

Read. Don't just cast around for what supports your own arguments.

I love Vetinari too - we agree on that a lot. I just don't see him as some kind of cold all-knowing superhuman. And he/Terry doesn't either.

 

[mspanners]

As far as anyone living in the City Vetinari is God......

He has the power of life or death over them all even if some of the Guild leaders think otherwise.

And He always finds a way of making them do as He want,if that's not a super power then I don't know what is............ but I wonder which God is pulling Vetinaris strings?

 

[Trish]

(Can) Moist have any moral authority in the story, due to his despicable and reprehensible actions in the past?

Moral authority /ethical authority does it matter? Moist has no credibility.

Readers know this. Vetinari, Drumknott and Mr Trooper know this because they were "in" on Spangler's hanging.

Morals are what a society collectively decides a certain standard is.
usually behavior, often belief. Either way, morals are man-made = made-up.


Ethical authority is kind of neat. I'll come back to that.

Initially, Moist treats his "appointment" as another con; trying to get people to believe he's a good and trustworthy person.

That is Moist's stock-in-trade. Getting people to believe -in him, in his trustworthiness, in his "line"-- is what he's always been about.

Over the course of the novel, I think this gives way to something much more, Moist trying an even bigger con. Trying to convince himself he's a good and trustworthy person.

Does he? Or, every few pages, does he think: "I can give this up anytime. Next week, maybe. After I see Spike again."
Moist is under no delusions as to what he is.

Moist used the money he stole to rebuild the PO (and for a few tithes --which he called "stealing"), but only because Gilt upped the ante when he had Gryle burn down the PO.

Moist wanted to WIN. He felt no sense of duty or civic pride or shame or regret or repayment.

When the PO burned, it became a pi$$ing contest between Moist and Gilt.
Maybe Moist wanted revenge for Anghammarad's death. Maybe he wanted to beat a con man better than he. Maybe he wanted to impress Spike. Maybe he was afraid that Vetinari's "offer" would be rescinded since there was no Post Office left.

Moist lives for the thrill. For excitement. For the idea that he might get caught out and lose.

Lots of us do, too. We go rapelling. Ride motorcycles. Play poker.

Moist is punished for his crimes, although not in a conventional manner. Vetinari makes him famous, removing his anonymity ... his primary weapon of deceit and neutering his ability to perpetuate further thefts.

Not until Making Money when Moist reveals himself to be a conman who "survived" a hanging.
Although Sacharissa's articles and Otto's pictures probably didn't help.

Vetinari puts him to work in a job that killed people better trained to deal with (physical) danger. I don't think Vetinari expects Moist to succeed or even survive.

Like a chain gang, but Mr Pump is the chain.
Moist's life as Spangler et al is already forfeit, why shouldn't Vetinari use him to challenge Gilt?

Gilt is running the Grand Trunk. But, he's also on the boards of other A-M companies.
Vetinari knows[/] he will have to eliminate Gilt and his influence.
Vetinari also knows he can't simply challenge him --legally or any other way.
So, Vetinari uses Moist, who's already "dead," to stop Gilt for the sake of the city.

Moral complexity is something Terry excels at, often putting stereotypically "good" acts into the hands of bad people ... Fairy G-Mother, Vimes, Granny Weatherwax

Yes, he is.

Everyone truly loves something. Might be an ideal or an abiding passion.
Might be a person, but usually not. We manage to learn to get along without people we love.

That "love" is, generally, the line that most folks won't cross.
Vimes loves A-M. Granny loves the Ramtops. I forget what the Fairy G loves, I havent' read WA in a while.

Moist cherishes his freedom. That's why he's so angry about Mr Pump. He cherishes his "medium" face /build /looks because they allow him the freedom he loves. That's why he doesnt' want his face known --the suit & hat, ok, because they are nothing more than another persona.

Does Moist really change in this novel? No and maybe.
Only so much as he stops lying to everyone else and lies to himself that he "can give it up any time."


We're left with the Man versus Himself basis of conflict at the end, just as we had it in the beginning.

Did resolve Man V Banshee, Man V Big Corps, Man V Boris, Man V Legal System.
In the end, Moist still has to face who he is and he still doesn't want anyone to know.