Has it struck anyone...

[RathDarkblade]

...that for the adaptations (stage, screen etc.), Angua and Carrot seem to be more or less interchangeable - or at least, almost of all Carrot's lines and scenes are given to Angua instead? (At least, of course, for adaptations of books other than "Guards! Guards!" or "Men at Arms").

What is going on? I just read the stage adaptation of "Making Money", and Carrot

Spoiler

doesn't appear at all (and his lines are given to Angua).

But Angua

Spoiler

still gets the lines that she has in the book.

Also, in the "Going Postal" and "Hogfather" movies,

Spoiler

we don't see Carrot at all.

Carrot does appear in the stage production of "Men at Arms", as does Angua - and that makes sense, obviously. But in the adaptations of later books,

Spoiler

Angua gets more scenes and more lines than Carrot does.

(Although to be honest, I haven't yet seen the stage adaptations of "Feet of Clay" or "Jingo" - two books in which Carrot and Angua are equally important characters).

So what's going on? Any ideas why directors are choosing to relegate Carrot to the background? I think it is a pity, because he has some of the best scenes (especially when he's dealing with rowdy crowds, e.g. in "Guards! Guards!" or "Feet of Clay"), or with robbers (beginning of "Feet of Clay" - co-operating with Angua). I think that Carrot and Angua work well together, and it's a pity not to use him.

Any ideas?

 

[Tonyblack]

In the books, Carrot plays a much smaller role after The Fifth Elephant and Angua plays a much bigger role. Even Fred and Nobby play bigger roles in the later books. Angua is a more dynamic character than Carrot. She has special skills and flaws that make her a lot more interesting. Terry made Carrot a bit too perfect and he became somewhat two dimensional. The only book where Carrot plays a large part after TFE is The Last Hero. And that is more of a special one off book.

 

[Molokov]

I've been involved with and/or seen more than 25 Pratchett stage adaptations, and yes, sometimes characters are removed from the playscript or production - generally for simplification of staging, size of cast, or whatever.

When the dialogue is generically policeman, it can be mostly transferred to any one of the main Watch - and although slight changes may have to be made due to character, the plot-relevant parts can be said by anyone. Carrot's role in the main plot is pretty much only important in Guards! Guards!, Men At Arms, Feet of Clay, Jingo and The Fifth Elephant - he's not as important to the plot for many of the other Watch books or even some of the Ankh-Morpork books where the Watch appear in the background. Angua tends to be reasonably important because there's some plot point about a Werewolf in the Watch (e.g. in The Truth, where William thinks the Werewolf is Nobby - thus it's important to have both Nobby and Angua appear, but not Carrot)

Last year, we did a stage version of Feet of Clay - but we only had a cast of 10, so some of the characters needed to go. Thus, our Watch was: Vimes, Carrot, Angua, Colon, Nobbs and Cheery. This meant that many of the other policemen's lines went to Carrot, Colon, or Angua (e.g. Detritus, Visit, or generic watchmen) and due to the way the scenes fell together, we had one scene where Carrot had Vimes's lines from the book and Colon had Visit's... so they just got modified a little bit to be more in character for those two - but the main thread of the investigation was still portrayed to the audience.

The audience still managed to enjoy the play, and many said it made sense, even if they hadn't read the book - which came somewhat as a surprise to the cast because some parts were incredibly confusing to us, and we'd been rehearsing it for months and had *also* read the book and the original playscript (which got mucked about with quite a bit to fit the available cast and doubling role costume changes that were required).

 

[raisindot]

The only book where Carrot plays a large part after TFE is The Last Hero. And that is more of a special one off book.

His last significant appearance was in Thud!, where he served the role of the "mediator" between the grags and the Watch, and led the search through the tunnels, although his main purpose there was to stoke sexual tension between Angua and Sally. But he had no role in the resolution of Koom Valley, whereas almost all of the other key Watchmen were there.

I also don't remember Carrot being in the Hogfather book at all. I only recall Nobby as the only "key" watchman, in the scene in the department store.

I know Carrot had one small scene in Making Money when he's inquiring about the break-in into the vault, but in an adaptation Angua could easily have taken the lines (and would be a lot more interesting). I don't even remember Carrot having a scene in the book version of Going Postal. I know that in the movie version Moist is initially "captured" by Angua at the beginning, but this never happened in the book.

 

[Tonyblack]

I'd forgotten about Thud! Yes, he plays a significant part in that book.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I also don't remember Carrot being in the Hogfather book at all. I only recall Nobby as the only "key" watchman, in the scene in the department store.

Raisin, you're right. I forgot that Carrot wasn't in Hogfather - I thought that he may have been brought in by Nobby or Visit. It's been a while since I read Hogfather, but since it's primarily a "Death" book, it wouldn't have made sense to bring in too many of the Watch.

I know Carrot had one small scene in Making Money when he's inquiring about the break-in into the vault, but in an adaptation Angua could easily have taken the lines (and would be a lot more interesting).

Ah, but that's why it makes sense to give Carrot those lines; Carrot is an expert at asking leading questions and making the suspect trip over his own words, all while giving the impression that he's doing nothing of the kind. Angua (at least in the earlier books) struck me as being "simply" a werewolf-that-is-also-a-policeman - for instance,

Spoiler

the incident at the dwarf jeweller's at the start of FoC (and also later in FoC, when a suicidally misguided person tries to hold up the Bunch of Grapes, while the Watch is off-duty in it).

So, the fun with Angua's scenes, at least for me, is seeing how she would think her way out of a dilemma - either as a human or as a werewolf. All this changed dramatically after TfE, of course; suddenly it was Angua who was the dominant one of the pair, and Carrot the more vulnerable.

Spoiler

(See, for instance, his chasing after Angua and being ambushed by the wolves).

Speaking of which, it surprised me that Carrot decided to

Spoiler

chase after Angua

in TfE. Before TfE, I remember that he would always say that

Spoiler

duty to the city had to come first, and that personal was not the same as important

. He even - by the end of FoC -

Spoiler

appeared to be completely sanguine about Angua leaving the city

; and yet, in TfE, he

Spoiler

put his personal desires ahead of his duty to Ankh-Morpork and nearly killed himself in the process.

Can anyone explain this apparent contradiction? *shrug*

 

[Dotsie]

True love?

 

[raisindot]

Rath, too hard to requote all the "show/not" things and assuming a Spoiler Alert mentality, so....

Angua dominating Carrot post TFE. . See my comments Re: Thud!. Carrot was still clearly in control of the investigation of the tunnels in the grag hideout, and it was clear that Angua felt threatened that Sally might try to "take her man." She even admitted that she was "Carrot's dog", while Sally tried to convince her not to be play this role.

After Thud!, Angua and Carrot don't even have any more scenes together in any DW novels. And neither plays a particularly pivotal role in any DW novels after that point.

Carrot's changing role (and attitude toward Angua) in The Fifth Elephant. . This issue has been discussed at length by me and others in the TFE discussion on this board. I suggest you go there any add your comments. I'm also willing to discuss TFE, my favorite DW book.

In a nutshell, I claim that Pterry was consciously removing Carrot from the mantle of "king/hero" he had established in the previous books. The Carrot of TFE is flawed, self-centered, quite nasty at times, and shirks his duty as temporary commander of the watch. In short he is "human." Pterry needed to do this because he realized that Vimes, not Carrot, needed to become the "superhero" of the Watch series. From TFE forward, Carrot is never more than a supporting character and is never there at the "climax" of the crime's resolution.

 

[Tonyblack]

What raisindot said.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Thanks, Raisindot and Tony - moved to here!