SPOILERS Havelock Vetenari and the Crossword Lady *Spoiler for Snuff*

[windscion]

... who has caused Havelock to use cross words

I have a theory, which is pretty much the title. I think the crossword Lady will become Lady Vetenari. She got him upset in Snuff by defeating him with a word he did not know. Vetenari suggests that a mind like that will not be content to dish out dog food. (She was running a pet food store at the time.) Perhaps she is not content to be the crossword lady?

Anyone with me on this?

 

[pip]

Should be a spoiler alert on this. Not all of us have finished Snuff yet.
But welcome to the Forum

 

[Tonyblack]

I haven't quite finished it either, but I do love the idea of Vetinari locking horns with the crossword compiler.

I've marked the thread as a spoiler and moved it to a more suitable place.

Welcome to the site, windscion.

 

[Anonymous]

Why does vetinari apparently think that no one can have hidden depths? That's something that intrigued me ever since that bit came up first in...was it MM?

 

[Shadowfox]

Alas...

With many apologies to Mr. P. I finished the book in one day. That's usually why I wait for the audio version because then at least it takes me 7-14 hours to finish a book. But that is an interesting conjecture about the crossword puzzle lady. Never even crossed my mind.

 

[Anonymous]

On a further sidenote:
It's a pet-peeve, alright but the whole deal with the crossword-lady makes my skin itch.
Knowing big words does NOT equal intelligence.
That already annoyed me with the orc.
(And it is in fact another thing that made me wonder if UA was actually written by someone else)

 

[windscion]

(a) in response to your thread-hijacking complaint:

Knowing big words does, however, indicate that one has an education, or else hangs with those who do. If you think of 'the orc' in terms of peoples class expectations, you can see why he surprises people. Looks low-caste, talks high-caste. None of it is about intelligence. It's about class. Some people only worry about their own circle, not about the 'big questions'. Whereas Wm DeWorde, for example, wonders about broader issues. It's not a question of moral superiority, either, although some suggestion exists in the books that such people are superior, simply because of the way these people are the focus of the books. But Lord DeWorde (the elder) was interested in the 'big picture' as much as his son was. He also happened to be a ruthless reactionary pig. (With apologies to any pigs who are offended by the comparison.)

(b) back on topic

As far as the crossword lady goes, she uses more than big words. HV notes some of her tricks. Besides, it's not about intelligence. It's about her ability to get a rise out of Vetenari. Usually the man is a sphinx.

(c) re: UA written by a ghost -- What bothers me about the last two boooks will be the topic of a new thread.

 

[Tonyblack]

Ok, I've read it now. I think that Vetinari enjoys a challenge and finding someone who can beat him is actually something he sort of enjoys. I don't think he's really angry with her and I sense a certain admiration from him to her.

These are clearly cryptic crosswords rather than just word puzzles and that require getting inside the head of the compiler to a degree. Maybe, on at least this level, Vetinari has met his match.

 

[Dotsie]

I pictured this lady as being quite homely looking, probably it's the pet shop thing. I think she's one of those people who has an interest in something, and develops an encylcopaedic knowledge of the subject, in this case words. I love that she winds Vetinari up :twisted: but I don't think he fancies her.

 

[windscion]

Pet Shop?

Not sure why running a pet shop means she homely unless you assume pet shop ladies like pets because humans are rude. However, allow me to point out that humans are not rude only to ugly people. They can be pretty damn rude to ppl who are into things they don't care about. I.e., thinking people. And one huge plus for dogs, they rarely talk back. (Gaspode, of course, is an exception.)

 

[Dotsie]

Running a pet shop doesn't mean she's homely, but liking small furries and words just made me think that she was, rather than an elegant Lady margolotta type.

I don't think people are generally rude, and that certainly has nothing to do with how a pet shop owner might look

 

[stripy_tie]

Why does vetinari apparently think that no one can have hidden depths? That's something that intrigued me ever since that bit came up first in...was it MM?

Maybe he's so good at reading people and understanding how they work that to him there's no such thing as a "hidden depth" because none of the depths are hidden.

Sadly i haven't read MM so i cannot comment much more than that.

I have it in black cover but annoyingly going postal isn't out in black cover yet and i don't want to read MM before GP or to buy an ordinary edition only to have the BC come out six months later.

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Borrow it from a library, then you can get on with reading MM.

 

[raisindot]

Ok, I've read it now. I think that Vetinari enjoys a challenge and finding someone who can beat him is actually something he sort of enjoys. I don't think he's really angry with her and I sense a certain admiration from him to her.

Agree. Vetinari has always been (and considered himself to be) superior to all others at messing up people's heads and preventing people from messing up his. That's how he has managed to stay in power, by using the DW equivalent of Jedi mind tricks to keep people off balance and to create an illusion of authority, power and menace that he can, technically, back up with his assassin's skills but would probably not withstand an onslaught by a highly organized rebellion (or even a well executed conspiracy).

The crossword lady has succeeded, in ways that even Sam Vimes hasn't, in upsetting Vetinari's feeling that, intellectually, he's always one step ahead of everyone else. I don't think he fancies her; he's just expressing his own frustration (and his admiration) in a way that isn't characteristcally Vetinari. I would say this is yet another flaw about Snuff, but that's another topic.

 

[MoonJewel]

I've always really liked that Ventinari was above the romantic/sexual. He's a brilliant man, and I've always thought that he if he fancied someone, he would not pursue anything because he has too many other things to do. He definitely enjoys the challenge. Is it a sign that he is getting bored with the city, perhaps it's running too smoothly? And he's always had a relationship with Lady Margalotta, hasn't he? An intelectual understanding, or am I misremembering?

 

[windscion]

... he's always had a relationship with Lady Margalotta, hasn't he? An intellectual understanding, or am I misremembering?

Well, you're interpreting. I mean, no one really knows. Common street gossip says she's his main squeeze, but there's really no way to verify it. IMNSHO, HV isn't crawling into bed with a vampire, but maybe when he was younger?

 

[stripy_tie]

... he's always had a relationship with Lady Margalotta, hasn't he? An intellectual understanding, or am I misremembering?

Well, you're interpreting. I mean, no one really knows. Common street gossip says she's his main squeeze, but there's really no way to verify it. IMNSHO, HV isn't crawling into bed with a vampire, but maybe when he was younger?

Obviously only pterry really knows and i still get the feeling that even he might not be entirely sure what it is.

However i've always got the impression that they're together, even if it's not in the physical sense any longer. They're both extremely independent, intellectually superior to most people and are very busy. At this point i think it's more of an understanding than anything else.

 

[MoonJewel]

Sorry I wasn't clear about what I meant by "intellectual understanding". I guess I should have stated it as "relationship" meaning that it's not like he's dating her, but he has a type of relationship with her that has been presented as different from the type he has with others, but definitely no real information on what that is. He he likes conversing with her and appreciates her wit and intelligence, but I could never imagine him hopping into anyone's bed, vampire or not. Then again, she could always turn him into a vampire, giving him immortality, and making him able to rule Ankh Morpork forever!

(And no, I don't think that would ever happen)

 

[raisindot]

Throughout the books you get the general sense that Vetinari is entirely sexless and not one who would ever get into a physical relationship with anyone. One of his key attributes is that he never truly achieves a real level of physical or social intimacy with anyone. He's too much in control to ever let himself willingly be susceptible to the control of someone else.

His 'relationship' with Lady Margolotta is, at best, one of a very strong platonic friendship. He can't reveal too much of himself to her, because she is one of the power brokers of Uberwald. And, as a committed black-ribboner, she isn't going to turn him into a vampire.

As such, his life-long bachelorhood isn't that unusual in Ankh Morpork, considering that there's no evidence that any of the guild leaders are either married or in relationships, heterosexual or otherwise, and certainly none of the wizards are.

 

[stripy_tie]

Sorry I wasn't clear about what I meant by "intellectual understanding". I guess I should have stated it as "relationship" meaning that it's not like he's dating her, but he has a type of relationship with her that has been presented as different from the type he has with others, but definitely no real information on what that is. He he likes conversing with her and appreciates her wit and intelligence, but I could never imagine him hopping into anyone's bed, vampire or not. Then again, she could always turn him into a vampire, giving him immortality, and making him able to rule Ankh Morpork forever!

(And no, I don't think that would ever happen)

Imagine the look on Vimes' face.