Hmm, just wondering...

[RathDarkblade]

...has it struck anyone that quite a lot of Sir Terry's toughest characters are also some of the oldest? Granny Weatherwax, Nanny Ogg, Cohen the Barbarian, Lord Vetinari, Vena the Raven-Haired, the Silver Horde... and DEATH... Don't you dare mess with the old folks. =P

Anyway, nothing serious... just an observation.

 

[raisindot]

If you're going to put Vetinari in there you have to have Vimes as well, since they're both roughly the same age. Lady Sybil probably belongs there as well. And don't forget Lu-Tze.

But it's probably less about age than experience. The older characters have more life experience and maturity, and have been able to use that experience to beat down challengers.

Although, you could also argue that younger folks like Carrot and Angua are tougher than just about everyone, Susan doesn't take crap from anyone. Brutha might not be "fighting" tough, but he's able to carry Vorbis halfway across the desert and face down the reborn Om. Adorabelle is a menace with a heel, and Tiffany Aching may be the toughest character of all, and she's still a teenager.

And there are some old folks who aren't that tough. Fred Colon is a doughy pushover. Ridcully might be the toughest wizard (you can't be archchancellor without some fighting spirit) but he never really faces off against any villain in any book.

 

[=Tamar]

Ridcully's opponents are the other members of the UU faculty, and it's generally a matter of traps than of personal confrontation (at least since the last few broken arms etc). Living compost heaps and shopping malls require more fireballs than toe-to-toe battles. Speaking of such things, don't forget Rincewind. He's wiry and tough as nails. He beat Trymon physically (with a bit of help from the height of the Tower of Art), and outran the creatures in the Dungeon Dimensions for an unspecified length of time. He was a twenty-something college dropout while Vimes was sinking into the gutter, but at this point it would be hard to say how old Rincewind is. I think of him as being in his middle thirties.

 

[raisindot]

Pterry missed a great opportunity to turn Ridbully into an action hero in Lords and Ladies. But instead, he avoided the elven threat and never fully participated in the rumpus (although he might have shot one of two with a crossbow? I can't quite remember).

Ridcully may dominate his fellow wizards, but he's certainly scared of Lord Vetinari. You wonder why he would be when, theoretically, he could turn the Patrician into a toad anytime he wanted to.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Pterry missed a great opportunity to turn Ridbully into an action hero in Lords and Ladies. But instead, he avoided the elven threat and never fully participated in the rumpus (although he might have shot one of two with a crossbow? I can't quite remember).

*LOL* I just had a very silly "Freudian slip" moment there. I thought you were saying that Ridcully used his crossbow to shoot an elf or two in the rumpus. *blush* That would certainly have made them into... ahem... bottom-dwellers. *BWG*

Ridcully may dominate his fellow wizards, but he's certainly scared of Lord Vetinari. You wonder why he would be when, theoretically, he could turn the Patrician into a toad anytime he wanted to.

Um, the last time that the Patrician was turned into a toad was in "Sourcery" - and IIRC, Coin (who carried out the deed) is no longer part of the Disc. Before that, Albert (who briefly returned to the Disc, during the events of "Mort") turned a barman into a toad because he "gave lip to a wizard" - and by the end of "Mort", Albert is back in Death's kingdom.

IIRC, Terry stated publicly that the rapid turnover of Patricians in the early books was something that he was trying to curtail, because Ankh-Morpork was not functioning as a city - and he wanted a city that worked. He certainly got that! I think Ridcully is scared of Vetinari because of how much political clout Vetinari has. Ridcully may be able to turn the Patrician into a toad, but that toad has got connections in the Assassins' Guild (for a start), and Ridcully doesn't want to wake up with a dagger in his back. He is, after all, a pragmatist.

Personally, I think Terry made the right decision.in severely limiting the power of wizards and witches. There's a concept in role-playing games (which Terry certainly played extensively) called a "munchkin"; this is where one of the players becomes so powerful that he can dominate the whole session and do anything, and the other players just sit around and get bored because the munchkin never lets them do anything. To translate this into Discworld: if Ridcully was so powerful that he could turn Vetinari into a toad AND get away with it, then who would step into the power vacuum? In Nobby's words (from "Feet of Clay"): "All the guild leaders would fight over it like cats in a sack". This is somewhat simplistic, but definitely happens whenever there's a power vacuum!

Anyway, I've been going on and on for a while now, so I'll shut up. (Sorry!) *blush*

 

[raisindot]

[
There's a concept in role-playing games (which Terry certainly played extensively) called a "munchkin"; this is where one of the players becomes so powerful that he can dominate the whole session and do anything, and the other players just sit around and get bored because the munchkin never lets them do anything.

A classic South Park episode was based on this very theme. It totally skewered the whole online gaming thing.

 

[The Mad Collector]

I quite enjoyed killing one of those off as a Dungeon Master. I left a full suit of armour with a ridiculous plus level armour class in a dark room with a sign on the door saying "bolt on armour" and I knew this particular player would be unable to resist it as he always grabbed anything that looked good. Once he had put it on it automatically teleported him to a bare heath where the first bolt of lightning revealed the suit was made of pure copper and the second blasted him to dust. At least he couldn't say he wasn't warned and the cheer from the other players was really worth it.

 

[RathDarkblade]

*LOL* Mad. Was it inspired by Rincewind's description of Twoflower from TCOM? I had to look it up to get the exact wording, but...

If complete and utter chaos was lightning, then he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'. *G*

I had a munchkin in my high-level campaign who had heaps of HPs and a high AC, but a rusty, unechanted sword. His rationale was that he was so well-protected that he could afford to only deal out 4-8 damage per round.

So... first the party climbs a hillock, at the top of which was a chest. Inside the chest was a suit of armour, which they idenitifed as Plate Armour of Invincibility. Having reached the top, an unnatural storm breaks out, showing the displeasure of the gods. The other PCs take the hint and scarper, making it away in time, but this guy grabs the armour, puts it on and taunts the gods: "MWAH HA HA! I'm invincible! INVINCIBLE!"

Just as he says that, a flash of lightning strikes this guy, and then a second flash of lightning strikes the hillock, crumbling it to pieces. He falls from the top of the hillock to the ground... and then the hillock falls on top of him. But he's still alive... just barely (1 HP left!) when... Hal, the god of humour, drops a cat on this guy.

I don't think I need to say what happened next...

 

[The Mad Collector]

*LOL* Mad. Was it inspired by Rincewind's description of Twoflower from TCOM? I had to look it up to get the exact wording, but...
If complete and utter chaos was lightning, then he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'. *G*

Only if I had access to a time machine, this would have been 1980 and COM didn't come out for another 3 years

 

[RathDarkblade]

Ah! Then maybe your vanquishing of the munchkin inspired Terry, three years later.