SPOILERS Hogfather Discussion **Spoilers**
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
Hogfather is one of my favorite DW novels, for all the reasons others have been talking about.
At the same time, I find it one of the hardest books to re-read. There's just so much going on in it and the plot and ideas are so complex that it's not easy reading, and I can see why people would be put off by it.
Teatime is Pterry's best villain, even better than Pin and Tulip. Had he channelled his genius and sociopathy into politics instead of crime he could have become the Patrician.
While I thought the movie version of Hogfather was the best of all the DW adaptations to that time, and it was nearly totally faithful to the book, I found it incredibly slow moving and lacking in energy. The role of Ridcully in particular was woefully miscast; he was made to look and sound like a weak and doddering old fool, instead of the larger than life, robust, garrulous, outdoorsy man he is in the book.
At the same time, I find it one of the hardest books to re-read. There's just so much going on in it and the plot and ideas are so complex that it's not easy reading, and I can see why people would be put off by it.
Teatime is Pterry's best villain, even better than Pin and Tulip. Had he channelled his genius and sociopathy into politics instead of crime he could have become the Patrician.
While I thought the movie version of Hogfather was the best of all the DW adaptations to that time, and it was nearly totally faithful to the book, I found it incredibly slow moving and lacking in energy. The role of Ridcully in particular was woefully miscast; he was made to look and sound like a weak and doddering old fool, instead of the larger than life, robust, garrulous, outdoorsy man he is in the book.
pip said:
Penfold said:
I beg to differ. I believe Vetinari got shot in the leg which resulted in the reason for him walking with a cane. Vimes saved his life if I recall correctly. 
Wasn't it actually Carrot who knocked Vetinari away from the fatal path of the bullet?
Jeff, I have to agree with Dotsie--Teatime may have been better than Pin & Tulip, but he's not nearly as effective as Carcer or the Cunning Man. Both of them are sociopathic, and the Cunning Man is almost anthropomorphic. Carcer is perfectly capable of killing or corrupting young Vimes which would change the whole future of Ank-Morpork. And he seems, in the pleas he makes in the graveyard to Vimes, so almost normal--something Teatime never achieves.
I quite like everything about Hogfather except for the actual 'how', so it's not one of my favourites.
This reading (I think it's my third - maybe fourth time so there's another clue to how much I don't rate it because I'm really not sure how much I've not read it) I finally got the full nuance of the tooth control exercise, but really the whole Tooth Fairy thing didn't work for me somehow. I enjoyed the kid's drawing aspect of it and the Bogeyman denouement did make up for the actual 'killing stroke' I suppose. I mean really - how had they killed him? Hogswatch was still going on full tilt anyway even without Death subbing so quite patently people were keeping up traditions despite all the goings on in mythland and the kids were showing up for their turn on the Hogfather's knee so quite how had he really been inhumed?
Did love the Canting Crew and the posh restaurant switcheroo in this and also the miffed angels when the Little Matchgirl was snatched from their clutches The wizards did a lot to mitigate as well - lurve the bathroom antics but really I can't see how you could put this anywhere near par with SG or even CJ or RM on the 'deeper meaning' scoping
This reading (I think it's my third - maybe fourth time so there's another clue to how much I don't rate it because I'm really not sure how much I've not read it) I finally got the full nuance of the tooth control exercise, but really the whole Tooth Fairy thing didn't work for me somehow. I enjoyed the kid's drawing aspect of it and the Bogeyman denouement did make up for the actual 'killing stroke' I suppose. I mean really - how had they killed him? Hogswatch was still going on full tilt anyway even without Death subbing so quite patently people were keeping up traditions despite all the goings on in mythland and the kids were showing up for their turn on the Hogfather's knee so quite how had he really been inhumed?
Did love the Canting Crew and the posh restaurant switcheroo in this and also the miffed angels when the Little Matchgirl was snatched from their clutches
The wizards did a lot to mitigate as well - lurve the bathroom antics but really I can't see how you could put this anywhere near par with SG or even CJ or RM on the 'deeper meaning' scoping
A
It been a while since I read the book (and currently I have leanded it to my mom) but the bit with the broken hourglass (am at that point in the movie again atm) was in the book as well, wasn't it?
I understood it that DEATH, upon seeing the Hogfather's time running out for some reason 'temporarily' removed the Hogfather from the reality so he could NOT get ... inhumed.
I understood it that DEATH, upon seeing the Hogfather's time running out for some reason 'temporarily' removed the Hogfather from the reality so he could NOT get ... inhumed.
Maybe but when they were cutting to the scenes in Death's Domain there was 'activity' around the hourglass regardless of whether it was broken or not. Granted Death and Albert were out there trying to keep everything going across time as well as space but everything kept going more or less without their being there the whole time - wizards were still getting on with stuff etc although there was more Oh Gods and glingleglingle thing interaction but they were still celebrating Hogswatch with the foodie aspects so did the HF ever really disappear?
Sjoerd3000 said:
Hogswatch might still be going on, but did children still believe in the Hogfather? Nobody believed in Om anymore but the Church of Om was still there
A
I understood it that the more important thing was that they believed in him because not doing so would be the first domino-stone tupiied over in a long line of stopping to believe in things like him, ultimately ending in the people of the disc, no matter the species becoming... remember what became of the humans in Science of Discworld 2 that lacked stories?
Science 2 The Globe? And the story-telling apes - well yes, but that's RoundWorld with no magical field. The Disc gods technically don't need belief because they exist anyway and so does magic. The Cori Celesti mob for the most part are 'elementals' or nature gods that would have presence in any event, even if they did start as small gods (like Om or Nuggan perhaps) with the exception being deities like Fate and the Lady although they're more aspects of causality or maybe anthropomorphic personifications...
Hogswatch is simply a point in the calendar to mark the end/start of the bi-cyclic 800-day year and the Hogfather the focus of ancient rituals to mark it. From that PoV he'd ceased to have any significance for centuries except for having a traditional feastday and had belief by default in that sense, so the essence of a Hogfather existed still but not the actual entity?
Hogswatch is simply a point in the calendar to mark the end/start of the bi-cyclic 800-day year and the Hogfather the focus of ancient rituals to mark it. From that PoV he'd ceased to have any significance for centuries except for having a traditional feastday and had belief by default in that sense, so the essence of a Hogfather existed still but not the actual entity?
