If Sir PTerry had not been so tragically snatched away by The Embuggerance...

[Woofb]

1. Do you think the books eventually felt the strain (I yield to no-one in suggesting that, unusually in a long loosely-connected roman-fleuve, they held up pretty damn well pretty damn late, but I tend to find the weakest ones are both A. Cthulhoids from the Dungeon dimensions earlier on and B. Some of the Koom Valley stuff because there's only so much I can take of the mysterious hooded figures with tiny differences between them (I think PTerry ended up being able to make other races and trolls just a bit more interesting than the grags' double-dealing).

Much more interestingly, what could he have picked up on if he had been allowed the time and space?

Who would the Patrician hand the city over to if/when he dies?
The obvious one is Carrot, by right of being the last hidden descendant of the King by secret signs.and portents. Well, everybody likes him, but 1. Commander Vimes will be very displeased! Commander Vimes will be very displeased! (Carrotesque for "Mr Vimes'd go spare!") and "I only want to be a policeman" just like.Tom-Jon only wanted to be an actor in Wyrd Sisters. Perhaps a Triumvirate of Vimes (burning passion for justice going all the way to the top, accepts being generally disliked), Carrot (for likeability in all contexts), and Lady Sybil for kindness and knowing the toffs. But Vimes' great weakness is that (having had the longest and most thorough redemption arc in the books) he is vulnerable through his family: Lady Sybil would have no idea of how to balance the guilds...in fact they would need to train up another Patrician who is "disinterested" (in the proper sense) by being clever, Machiavellian, and having few or no close personal ties (an aunt in Genua and a possible romance with Lady Margoletta in Ubervald), and an obsession with making the city work. Given that an attempt to resume hereditary monarchy with Carrot might lead to parts of the family tree literally barking, it's no wonder that we're left with a holding operation remarkably similar to British constitutional democracy, with the Patrician as something like the Queen, somebody who can keep an eye on everything and advise the rumbunctious Commons (like the Ankh-Morpork Guilds) and Lords.

I'd like to see more of the Witches--the Shakespeare and opera take-offs and the way ostensibly non-hierarchical practical hierarchies work with women who do some of the most important work in the least-regarded corners (like the NHS). I'd also like more cats like Greebo and You, but I am a mad cat- lady.

 

[Tonyblack]

I can't imagine that Terry would ever kill off Vetinari. He started off as very much a background character and pretty much came to life on the page. Why would a writer kill off such a perfect character? Conversely, Carrot is another "perfect" character, but not in a good way, in my opinion. If you have a "good" character that is as perfect as Carrot, he becomes too predictable. Terry's best characters, in my opinion, are ones with flaws, such as Vimes, Granny and Vetinari. The Carrot we first met in G!G! was a much more likeable character due to his taking things so literally.

 

[Woofb]

True, although he did not have enough time, it's hard to imagine how one would adjust it. I'd love to speculate what other twists he could play on the original ideas.

 

[Tonyblack]

Oh I understand completely. I think we all miss him so much that speculation is what we have left. I would love to have learned more about Tiffany and Young Sam growing up in the city. What would Moist's next endeavour be, and how Cheery's "Coming out" would have an influence on female dwarfs throughout the Disc.

 

[Molokov]

Rob Wilkins has mentioned (on a few occasions) that one of the unwritten novels that Terry had begun planning (called 'Clang!') was one in which Vetinari goes missing, and Moist von Lipwig has to take over the city. What else it would have contained, we will never know...

Apparently Terry had had ideas for about another 10 books, but only Rob knows how much of those ever got beyond the conceptual stage, and if there's any data about them that wasn't run over by a steamroller, it's a secret tightly kept between Rob and Terry's family.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Wasn't there a concept novel called "Scouting for Trolls"? I can't seem to recall what it was about.

In "Making Money", the Undertaking is mentioned more than once - a city under the city, building streets and so on. It sounds like Vetinari had plans to give Ankh-Morpork a working sewer system. Perhaps this was the seeds of "Dodger", one of my favourite Pterry books?

I also seem to remember that, at the end of MM, it's hinted that Vetinari was going to give Moist control of A-M's dysfunctional tax department. (We know it's dysfunctional thanks to the hilarious Rats Chamber scene in "Jingo", where Vetinari authorises Vimes to go after tax evasion by the rich and powerful. That's not the only thing that makes it hilarious, by the way. *BWG* I love "Jingo").

Incidentally, Woofb, I don't recall Carrot saying "Mr Vimes would go spare". I'm pretty sure that Colon said it once or twice, and Nobby definitely used that phrase (especially in Feet of Clay -- "Will you stop saying that!"). But Carrot strikes me as far too level-headed for that.

I agree that Carrot had become too perfect. Perhaps TFE was Pterry's attempt to give Carrot a flaw or two? But it doesn't make sense that Carrot would rush off after Angua. After all, she went about the Klatchian ship in "Jingo", and Carrot went and reported to Vimes first. Also, we've heard Carrot say several times that "Personal is not the same thing as important". So what changed this time? Was he afraid of losing Angua to Uberwald (which sounds reasonable), or was it simply to set up the amusing Colon-tries-to-run-the-Watch-and-fails subplot?

Carrot in later books comes across as hyper-competent in reading people - e.g. in MM, when he interrogates Moist. He always was hyper-competent, though, so that's not a big stretch.

Thoughts?

 

[Tonyblack]

Not only was there a concept of Scouting For Trolls, but there was actually a weekend camping event down in Wincanton, complete with badges.

Terry always had lots of irons in the fire. He used to chat to fans about, for example: Scouting For Trolls, Unseen Academicals and Raising Taxes, long before the books ever got to see the light of day.

 

[raisindot]

I'm not a huge fan of these "What would Pterry have written next" conjectures (the Facebook Pterry groups is overloaded with these topics). A lot of these conjectures are our own wishful thinking about what we hope he would do. Vague outlines or not, we have not a single inking of where he believed the series would go. So why try to predict what's unpredictable?

 

[raisindot]

I agree that Carrot had become too perfect. Perhaps TFE was Pterry's attempt to give Carrot a flaw or two?

SPOILERS AHEAD

Actually, quite the opposite. Carrot starts off strong but over time his role and importance diminish dramatically. Carrot pretty much peaked in Men at Arms when he did 90% of the crime-solving and it looked like he would become Commander while Vimes retired. But the Vimes-that-would-be first really emerged in Feet of Clay, where Carrot and Vimes had roughly equally roles in solving the "mysteries." But from that point on it became clear that Vimes would always be the main Watch leader, and Carrot would be the sidekick. In Jingo Carrot does almost nothing to solve the mystery of who tried to assassinate the Prince and plays basically a glorified Lawrence of Arabia role. In The Fifth Elephant he plays no significant role in the main "who dunnit" and in fact actually becomes a hindrance to both Vimes and Angua (other than his own act against Wolfgang). He is so unimportant here that he never meets Rhys (something any Dwarf would want do do). In Thud! he plays essentially a forensic detective, but other than (mainly with the aid of Angua and Sally) discovering the dead miners, he doesn't contribute anything to solving the central mystery of what the grags were trying to keep from coming to light in Koom Valley. Carrot is so unimportant that he's the only major Watch character who doesn't go to Koom Valley. Again, what dwarf wouldn't want to see the mystery of Koom Valley? Pterry purposely diminishes role over time as he elevated Vimes' role. Carrot never has a significant role in any future books. He has nothing to do in Snuff. He's not with Vimes and Angua in Monstrous Regiment. He has no role at all in Raising Steam. In the Moist books he plays the role of copper foil to Moist, but nothing he does has any impact.

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

I was looking forward to the proposed book Raising Taxes but alas............

 

[RathDarkblade]

Raisin, I agree with you - mostly - but in "Jingo", Carrot does more than the "Lawrence of Arabia" role. He saves Prince Khufurah's life by distracting the bowman. He also acts as translator between Vimes and the D'Regs. Vimes would've been lost without Carrot.

In "Feet of Clay", Carrot solves the mystery of who killed Mr Hopkinson, and why it couldn't have been Dorfl.

I agree that Carrot's role becomes smaller and smaller over time, but I'd argue that - with a character as "perfect" as Carrot - that was pretty much inevitable. If he was given more to do, he'd inevitably take over the entire book and leave the other characters with almost nothing to do (like a "munchkin" character in D&D and other roleplaying games).
======================
Dug, I agree. The concept of "Raising Taxes" - reforming the taxation system - sounds interesting. How would you force the guild leaders and nobility to pay taxes, something that (as we've seen in "Jingo") they have always resisted? Maybe Terry would've taken a leaf from Roundworld and mention some past taxes that have proven ineffective -- for instance, Mad Lord Snapcase creating a Window Tax and so on? Just an idea ...

 

[Molokov]

I think that both Raising Taxes (the title, the hints at the end of Making Money, and it being a Moist von Lipwig book), and the concept of the Undertaking (not, I think sewers, but more likely an underground train system, like the London Underground) ended up becoming Raising Steam - a Moist von Lipwig book about trains. So I suspect some of those ideas Terry had which he'd hinted at and mentioned publicly ended up becoming a new book.

In fact, Terry and Rob released the title for Raising Steam as an exclusive to the Australian Discworld Convention in Melbourne in 2013, over a Skype call. Of course - whether it was deliberate or not - we got the word "Raising" and then the call cut out.... After we dialed back in, they revealed that the title was, in fact, Raising Steam and not Raising Taxes (as most people had speculated).

I've not heard much more about "Scouting for Trolls" other than it was a title Terry liked and he had (at one point) said was an upcoming book - but, apart from the camp that Tony mentioned (and there's an accompanying booklet, which was republished in A Blink of the Screen) - I don't think that ever got past the conceptual stage.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm ... isn't it strange, though, how the Undertaking == underground rail project is eventually not done in A-M but by the goblins. For a couple of novels, the idea of the Undertaking is floated, and when it finally arrives the whole thing changes. Of course Terry can change his mind if he wants to - it's his book.

Raising Taxes would have been interesting, too... oh well.

 

[=Tamar]

Carrot isn't perfect at all. He is, in fact, something of a villain. Terry managed to wind him down, but there are hints from at least the second Watch book that Carrot has a sneaky side. Remember, he begins by becoming a Watchman at age 15. (Not unusual - Vimes began at 16.) For most of the stories he is an overgrown teenager, rigidly following the Rules he was taught in the mines, but learning how to bend them by sophistry. He begins saying things that can be taken two ways, and both Vimes and Angua catch on to that by the time of Jingo.

When Carrot decides to follow Angua to Uberwald, against her expressed wishes and genuinely deserting his post, Vetinari decides to teach him a lesson by showing him that "his" Watch will not survive without Vimes. Vetinari deliberately put Colon in charge to make that happen. Carrot comes back to a disaster - the Watch that Vimes, his superior officer, put him in charge of, is destroyed and will have to be rebuilt. And look at what he does. He makes the false claim that the oath is to the Watch, not to the City - if Vimes found out about that, he would rip Carrot a new one. He further falsely claims that Colon and Nobby took an oath to _him_ - and uses the threat of his sword to prevent them from pointing out just how false that is. He threatens to kill the two most loyal watchmen. He is in fact acting like a conquering king. And he isn't 21 yet.

Vetinari has been performing a balancing act between Carrot and Vimes, all the while aware that his position as Patrician is officially that as Steward for the king, right down to the official seat below the (rotten) throne (a symbol that is in existence in Canada). He is trying to train Carrot, but the kid is getting ambitious, not to say autocratic. That was at the boiling point, and I think it was in order not to have to write that story that Carrot 's role was downgraded.

Carrot would have been a liability at Koom Valley. He is too loyal a dwarf.

 

[=Tamar]

But to get back to another point - Vimes would not have been a good successor simply because he is the same age as Vetinari, with the same age-related issues. Moist was suggested at times and Terry said he would not make a good patrician but he would make a good politician. My opinion on that is that while I believe Terry would not have written Vetinari out, if the Disc were real, Moist would have taken over by being elected. Because Moist's superpower is his likability. Vetinari ruled by fear and being too indispensable. Moist wins by make people approve of him. He has a similar ability to act decisively and to see through people's motivations, and most of all, he is still young. He controls the money and the post office and is involved with financing the railroad, while Adora Belle controls the Clacks. The aristocrats have not managed to dislodge him. In Making Money he even got rid of the official hold that Vetinari had over him. Together, he and Adora Belle have de facto control of Ankh-Morpork's commerce.

I'm sad that we didn't get the Undertaking, because I am convinced that Moist would have had a golden hard hat. And I think that if Terry could have found a way to make taxes funny (he said that he couldn't and that was why he didn't write it), Moist might have been involved - though I also was thinking that there was an obvious group to be used to collect them: the Thieves Guild. The Thieves Guild already had a system in place for collecting specified amounts of money and giving receipts. And Moist is already an avatar of the Disc equivalent of Mercury, who was the god of messengers and thieves (and sailors).
No doubt Terry would have come up with something better.

 

[RathDarkblade]

=Tamar, I agree that Carrot is not perfect. He simply starts out that way - i.e. despite his naivete, he works hard, does good, investigates and solves crims, brings order into chaotic situations, knows everyone's names (and their wife's/kids' names), etc. etc. In G!G! and MAA, he is easily the most sympathetic and likeable character (to the point where, in MAA, he saves Vetinari's life). After that, he deteriorates as a character.

I agree that, in TFE, Carrot is selfish, mean and - worse still - untruthful. It is not the same character that we met in G!G!. As they say in TV Tropes, Characterisation Marches On.

Moist and Adora Belle together are very powerful now. If Moist was to become the new Patrician, he would be too powerful, to the point that either the aristocrats or the commoners would try to revolt against him, despite his likeability. He needs someone to keep him in check (i.e. Vetinari), and he also needs to satisfy his appetite for danger (e.g. at the start of MM, he tries to break into the Post Office). If he were to become Patrician, this craving for danger might lead him to declare war on another state, thus upsetting the delicate balance around the Circle Sea.

 

[=Tamar]

I think part of the point is that being Patrician is dangerous enough to keep him interested. Unlike the post office or the mint, there's always a new problem to solve.

 

[raisindot]

Carrot isn't perfect at all. He is, in fact, something of a villain. Terry managed to wind him down, but there are hints from at least the second Watch book that Carrot has a sneaky side. Remember, he begins by becoming a Watchman at age 15. (Not unusual - Vimes began at 16.) For most of the stories he is an overgrown teenager, rigidly following the Rules he was taught in the mines, but learning how to bend them by sophistry. He begins saying things that can be taken two ways, and both Vimes and Angua catch on to that by the time of Jingo.

When Carrot decides to follow Angua to Uberwald, against her expressed wishes and genuinely deserting his post, Vetinari decides to teach him a lesson by showing him that "his" Watch will not survive without Vimes. Vetinari deliberately put Colon in charge to make that happen. Carrot comes back to a disaster - the Watch that Vimes, his superior officer, put him in charge of, is destroyed and will have to be rebuilt. And look at what he does. He makes the false claim that the oath is to the Watch, not to the City - if Vimes found out about that, he would rip Carrot a new one. He further falsely claims that Colon and Nobby took an oath to _him_ - and uses the threat of his sword to prevent them from pointing out just how false that is. He threatens to kill the two most loyal watchmen. He is in fact acting like a conquering king. And he isn't 21 yet.

Vetinari has been performing a balancing act between Carrot and Vimes, all the while aware that his position as Patrician is officially that as Steward for the king, right down to the official seat below the (rotten) throne (a symbol that is in existence in Canada). He is trying to train Carrot, but the kid is getting ambitious, not to say autocratic. That was at the boiling point, and I think it was in order not to have to write that story that Carrot 's role was downgraded.

Carrot would have been a liability at Koom Valley. He is too loyal a dwarf.

Most of this I agree with. But his devious side started in Guards! Guards! where he killed the villain literally by throwing the book at him while trying to make it look like a naive accident. Even Vimes (at this point) may not have resorted to such obvious violence.

But I argue that Carrot more or less grew up by Men at Arms. He wasn't a follower any more--he was a true copper who solved crimes like an adult. Same as in Men at Arms. In both these books, he was instrumental in solving one of the other major "whodunnits." But from there on, Pterry started to modify his personality. He did nothing to solve the "who dunnit" of Jingo and TFE. Instead Pterry fooled around his personality, making him a Lawrence King of Arabia in Jingo and a obsessive stalker and all around bad guy in TFE. By that time Carrot was no longer a central character in the "crime-solving" aspects of the stories. He was left out of key events. As a Dwarf, he should have wanted to meet Rhys, whom he would have accepted as King. But Pterry kept him away because Carrot no longer deserve the spotlight. And, by all rights, he should have gone to Koom Valley. As the Smelter, he would have been entitled to see how his role affected the outcome. But (my opinion) Pterry didn't want him there, because, like in TFE, he no longer felt Carrot should share the spotlight (and it would have been fine for Carrot the Dwarf to go, since Detritus the Troll was going as was Cheery).

 

[Woofb]

Wasn't there a concept novel called "Scouting for Trolls"? I can't seem to recall what it was about.

[

In "Making Money", the Undertaking is mentioned more than once - a city under the city, building streets and so on. It sounds like Vetinari had plans to give Ankh-Morpork a working sewer system. Perhaps this was the seeds of "Dodger", one of my favourite Pterry books?

I love the way the class system (Harry King as a rough diamond and his unseen wife and daughters as social climbers) , the history of waste management (there actually used to be dog poo for softening leather and human pee for whitening linen at different times), the "tosheroon" we see in The Truth, etc are all worked together to create a fascinating system

"Incidentally, Woofb, I don't recall Carrot saying "Mr Vimes would go spare".
I'm pretty sure that Colon said it once or twice, and Nobby definitely used that phrase (especially in Feet of Clay -- "Will you stop saying that!"). But Carrot strikes me as far too level-headed for that."
You're right--I'm scrambling for an equivalent for Carrot appealing to higher authority but he tends not to

I agree that Carrot had become too perfect. Perhaps TFE was Pterry's attempt to give Carrot a flaw or two? But it doesn't make sense that Carrot would rush off after Angua. After all, she went about the Klatchian ship in "Jingo", and Carrot went and reported to Vimes first. Also, we've heard Carrot say several times that "Personal is not the same thing as important". So what changed this time? Was he afraid of losing Angua to Uberwald (which sounds reasonable), or was it simply to set up the amusing Colon-tries-to-run-the-Watch-and-fails subplot?

Carrot in later books comes across as hyper-competent in reading people - e.g. in MM, when he interrogates Moist. He always was hyper-competent, though, so that's not a big stretch.

Thoughts?

QUOTE]In "Making Money", the Undertaking is mentioned more than once - a city under the city, building streets and so on. It sounds like Vetinari had plans to give Ankh-Morpork a working sewer system. Perhaps this was the seeds of "Dodger", one of my favourite Pterry books? [][/QUOTE]
I love all the Victorian sewer system stuff and how

I also seem to remember that, at the end of MM, it's hinted that Vetinari was going to give Moist control of A-M's dysfunctional tax department. (We know it's dysfunctional thanks to the hilarious Rats Chamber scene in "Jingo", where Vetinari authorises Vimes to go after tax evasion by the rich and powerful. That's not the only thing that makes it hilarious, by the way. *BWG* I love "Jingo").

Incidentally, Woofb, I don't recall Carrot saying "Mr Vimes would go spare". I'm pretty sure that Colon said it once or twice, and Nobby definitely used that phrase (especially in Feet of Clay -- "Will you stop saying that!"). But Carrot strikes me as far too level-headed for that.

I agree that Carrot had become too perfect. Perhaps TFE was Pterry's attempt to give Carrot a flaw or two? But it doesn't make sense that Carrot would rush off after Angua. After all, she went about the Klatchian ship in "Jingo", and Carrot went and reported to Vimes first. Also, we've heard Carrot say several times that "Personal is not the same thing as important". So what changed this time? Was he afraid of losing Angua to Uberwald (which sounds reasonable), or was it simply to set up the amusing Colon-tries-to-run-the-Watch-and-fails subplot?

Carrot in later books comes across as hyper-competent in reading people - e.g. in MM, when he interrogates Moist. He always was hyper-competent, though, so that's not a big stretch.

Thoughts? [/QUOTE]

 

[Tonyblack]

My late wife (swreader) hated Carrot in TFE. He abandoned his post to chase after his girlfriend, who had gone out her way to stop him following her. As mentioned - in Jingo he was fine with her going off. He then became a liability to the mission and had to be rescued. He put Gaspode's life in peril as well. It's no wonder that Gaspode into hiding with the Canting Crew!