SPOILERS Jingo Discussion *spoilers*

[RathDarkblade]

Question... in Jingo, we learn that now there are:

....dwarfs on the Watch and they say it is better even than Ironcrufts ('T'Bread Wi' T'Edge') and you carn't beat the taste of a homeforged loaf, so well done mum. (Jingo)

‘Ironcrufts’ is a possible play on the fact that an elongated and italicised small "f" used to be a substitute for a capital "S". Use that and you get "Ironcrusts", i.e. "iron crusts". Talk about cutting away the crusts for the kiddies! But knowing dwarf kiddies, they'd probably ask for the crusts to be put back on. What do you think?

Also, in the L-Space Feet of Clay articlel (Note 26), we learn that:

"T'Bread Wi' T'Edge". A long-running series of British commercials for a certain brand of bread emphasised the Yorkshire origins of the manufacturer.

Finally, from this tumblr site, I learned that...

...There is a LOT of regional humor in Disc which can go over non British people’s heads. Like the fact that the Dwarf bread slogan “T’bread wi t’edge” implies a northern Lancashire accent and is based on the actual real life Warbuton Family Baker’s slogan, which is in itself a pun—“Warbutons, bakers born and bread”.

So what's the solution? What is t' bread wi' t' edge? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Tonyblack]

It not just that Warburtons bread it is also a combination of Allison's and Hovis.

 

[raisindot]

Question... in Jingo, we learn that now there are:

....dwarfs on the Watch and they say it is better even than Ironcrufts ('T'Bread Wi' T'Edge') and you carn't beat the taste of a homeforged loaf, so well done mum. (Jingo)

Is this really from Jingo? This sounds like it comes from one of Carrot's grammatically jumbled letters to home in Men at Arms. I think the Carrot letter writing ended with MAA, didn't it? By Jingo, Carrot's character had evolved far beyond the naive teenage wonderkind of the first two Guards books.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I did a google search for this quote, and all four results mention Jingo. Here's just one result: https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1407035088

 

[raisindot]

I stand corrected, Rath. I need to go back and look at this in the book itself.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I just finished re-reading Jingo... what an awesome book. I found a couple of new things that I didn't think about before, which I'd love to share. There were also some hilarious moments...
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* Early in the text it's revealed that Leonard has discovered how to produce the Discworld equivalent of a nuclear weapon. So when Vetinari takes a submarine to Klatch, carrying an important package that will end the war quickly, in a sealed tube... it turns out to be Ankh-Morpork's document of surrender.
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Funny Moments

* The scene in the war room:

"Why are our people going out there?" said Mr Boggis of the Thieves' Guild.

"Because they are showing a brisk pioneering spirit and seeking wealth and... additional wealth in a new land," said Lord Vetinari.

"What's in it for the Klatchians?" said Lord Downey.

"Oh, they've gone out there because they are a bunch of unprincipled opportunists always ready to grab something for nothing," said Lord Vetinari.

"A masterly summation, if I may say so, my lord," said Mr Burleigh, who felt he had some ground to make up.

The Patrician looked down again at his notes.

"Oh, I do beg your pardon," he said, "I seem to have read those last two sentences in the wrong order..."
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* Lord Vetinari juggling and shilling a game of guess-which-cup-the-egg-is-under. Later revealing that he actually never learned to juggle, and he always knows where the chicken is. After running Ankh-Morpork with even a small measure of efficiency, what he's just pulled off is a cake-walk.
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* Any time that Vetinari finds something amusing is also usually pretty epic - especially when it comes across pretty subtly/ambiguously. For instance, when Vimes says, "In my opinion, no surgeons anywhere have cleaner sawdust on their floors than the ones in this city," Vetinari coughs, which is possibly because he's trying not to laugh at Vimes' zinger, or maybe he's just trying to redirect the conversation. It's always fun to pay attention to Vetinari's tendency to cough/look away/cover his mouth whenever Vimes gets off a clever line.
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* Leonard of Quirm offhandedly makes a comment quite pertinent to the story, and Vetinari makes it halfway back through his elaborate trap system after leaving the room before it registers. He then comes back as quickly as possible, straightens himself out, comes in, sits calmly down and says, "You did WHAT?!"
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* Lord Vetinari, under arrest for treason, asks if it's possible to be dragged through the streets in chains on a hurdle. Nobby reports from the sports shop that they don't have hurdles but they do have a small trampoline. Just imagine Lord Vetinari bouncing up and down while maintaining a perfectly deadpan expression...
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* That scene at the end – where in the middle of Vimes leading the parade again, an unlicensed theft occurs and he gives chase, leading to a bit of confusion as everyone else follows suit. The poor thief looks behind him to see half of Ankh-Morpork's upper class bearing down on him.
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Moments of Pure Awesome

* Vimes (and half the other characters present) at the climax — he arrests two entire armies (including his own side) as they stand on the battlefield, charging them with breach of the peace, loitering with intent, loitering within tent, malicious lingering... oh, and carrying a concealed weapon, simply because he was in the tent, and therefore couldn't see the weapons they were carrying. He also arrests the leader of the opposing army for murder and threatens to shoot the leader of Ankh-Morpork's army...

...at which point Captain Carrot organises a football game.
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* The knife-juggling stunt, which consisted of Vetinari juggling three melons and three knives at the same time (it is pointed out that this is harder than six of either item, because of the differences in shape and weight). He then goes on to use the knives to cut the melons in half in midair. Furthermore, on the next page, he claims that "Until now, I've never tried it."

(That is, he's never tried juggling - of any kind - but apparently it's a cake walk compared to running Ankh-Morpork. His excuse? "One simply knows where the objects in question are, and where one wants them to be. What more does one need?")
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* This exchange:

Prince Cadram: Well, Sir Samuel, when I raise my hand, the men behind me will cut you d-

71-Hour Ahmed: I will cut down the first man that moves.

Prince Cadram: Then the second man that moves will kill you, traitor!

Captain Carrot: (Drawing sword) They'll have to move very fast.

Commander Vimes: Any volunteers to be the third man? Anyone?
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A moment of pure heart-warming

* It is a small thing, but... Lady Sybil has been occupying her mind with knitting socks for Vimes.

'Er... how long do you think my legs are?'

'Um...' She looked at the knitting. 'Do you need a scarf?'

... and a couple of pages later, when Vimes has been summoned to an audience with Vetinari (accompanied, of course, by Sybil)...

"Good evening, Sir Samuel, and may I say what a nice scarf you're wearing." *LOL*

(Again, it's a small thing... but the scarf would probably be quite long by now. Perhaps it's a reference - conscious or unconscious - to Dr Who?)

Anyway, I've been going on for a while. What do you think?

 

[=Tamar]

I could be wrong, but I think the first Discworld-related scarf had been made available before Jingo was written. Of course there is no connection, since it was an Unseen University scarf.

 

[raisindot]

I always liked the banter between Vimes and 71-Hour Ahmed, like:

When they reach the Khalif's tent (dialogue not 100%):

Ahmed: So, what do we do now, Sir Samuel?

Vimes: I don't know. I never thought we'd make it this far.

Ahmed: It has been interesting knowing you, Sir Samuel.

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Battlefield scene where one of the Klatchian generals gives Ronnie Rust a telescope to view the proceedings.

Rust: Oh yes, we've just started producing these devices in Ankh Morpork.

General: I wouldn't know about that. This one was a gift from my grandfather.

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Right before the juggling scene:

Vetinari: Sgt. Colon, our very survival depends on you acting like a fat, stupid idiot.

Colon: Right, sir.


If you have a chance to listen to the audiobook version, get it. It's my favorite Nigel Planer reading.

 

[Aquamarine]

Hello. I go, I come back.

God yes, I love this book. There are so many ideas and concepts in it, and yet everything feels like it ties together exceptionally well. It's so off-the-wall; one of my crowning favourite scenes in the book is the council of war at the beginning. Sheer hilarity, and an excellent introduction to the major players and themes of the rest of the story.

I just finished re-reading Jingo... what an awesome book. I found a couple of new things that I didn't think about before, which I'd love to share. There were also some hilarious moments...

Moments of Pure Awesome

* Vimes (and half the other characters present) at the climax — he arrests two entire armies (including his own side) as they stand on the battlefield, charging them with breach of the peace, loitering with intent, loitering within tent, malicious lingering... oh, and carrying a concealed weapon, simply because he was in the tent, and therefore couldn't see the weapons they were carrying. He also arrests the leader of the opposing army for murder and threatens to shoot the leader of Ankh-Morpork's army...

That section you mentioned always struck me as Sam Vimes right on the edge between outstandingly foolish and breathtakingly amazing. Sure, there's the audacity of arresting two armies and their leaders by holding the Prince hostage, but he's semi-delirious by that point, runs out of clean options, is stuck in a stalemate, and immediately hears how his other self failed so lethally trying to protect the city. And he's seriously contemplating regicide, knowing full well Ahmed will kill him if he gives in.

What an amazingly harrowing scene that is! It's one of those moments that shows off just what a brilliant and conflicted character Pratchett was able to create. Just as well Vetinari comes in and defuses the situation, or god knows what Sam would've done. And of course it adds to his CV (I think it's mentioned in Thud! that he arrested two armies and/or the Patrician) while making it clear it wasn't as glamorous or clean as you'd think.

This sounds like it comes from one of Carrot's grammatically jumbled letters to home in Men at Arms. I think the Carrot letter writing ended with MAA, didn't it?

Carrot's composing one of his signature letters early on in Jingo after Reg fetched him from the "scouts". It's during the Vortin's Diamond Warehouse hostage situation. His second scene in the book, I think. In any case, it's immediately after the scene in which Colon and Nobby watch the man painting "Prid of Ankh-Morpork" on the boat.

Page 43 in my paperback copy. I would have to check if he writes another one in a later Watch book, though.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I'm pretty sure that Carrot wrote letters home in G!G! (obviously), MAA, Jingo and FoC (I'm not sure if Jingo came before or after FoC). The next Watch book is TFE, so I don't think Carrot wrote any letters there; at any rate, where Carrot was, there wouldn't have been anyone to deliver it.

 

[raisindot]

Jingo came after Feet of Clay. And Carrot wrote no letters to home in The Fifth Elephant, which was the book that began Carrot's "demotion" as a key character. But that's an entirely different topic.

 

[Teppic]

It's a throwaway line but we're told Constable Visit has his own printing press early on in Jingo.

Constable Visit–The–Ungodly–With–Explanatory–Pamphlets was a good copper, Vimes always said, and that was his highest term of praise. He was an Omnian with his countrymens almost pathological interest in evangelical religion and spent all his wages on pamphlets; he even had his own printing press. The results were handed out to anyone interested and everyone who wasnt interested as well.

But a bit later we learn...

The wizards of Ankh–Morpork had been very firm on the subject of printing. It's not happening here, they said. Supposing, they said, someone printed a book on magic and then broke up the type again and used it for a book on, say, cookery? The metal would remember. Spells aren't just words. They have extra dimensions of existence. We'd be up to here in talking souffles. Besides, someone might print thousands of the damn things, many of which could well be read by unsuitable people.

The Engravers' Guild was also against printing. There was something pure, they said, about an engraved page of text. It was there, whole, unsullied. Their members could do very fine work at very reasonable rates. Allowing unskilled people to bash lumps of type together showed a disrespect for words and no good would come of it.

The only attempt ever to set up a printing press in Ankh-Morpork had ended in a mysterious fire and the death by suicide of the luckless printer. Everyone knew it was suicide because he'd left a note. The fact that this had been engraved on the head of a pin was considered an irrelevant detail.

I've read this book a number of times and only just noticed this!

 

[=Tamar]

Well spotted! Constable Visit's press may have used engraved plates. Reusing type doesn't involve melting it down, but reusing worn-out engraved plates does. (They do wear out after a while.) Presumably the melting and recasting eliminates the memory in the metal that the wizards object to.

 

[Teppic]

Hehe, just seen this on Twitter
https://twitter.com/underthenettle/stat ... 6074517504

 

[RathDarkblade]

Oh dear. 'Things to do to do to do today: die . . .'

 

[Mixa]

Hahaha! XP

Mx

 

[Terramax]

Whilst I understand this is an old thread, I feel I have to comment as Jingo, whilst not the first Discworld book that I read, was the first I owned, so I have fond memories of this one. I've read it maybe three times now, but ought to go a forth soon as it's been a long while.

I recall the Nobby, colon and Vetinari moments dragging on for too long too at times but still enjoyable. Nobby and Colon are always a great laugh to have around, but I tend to enjoy them most when used sparingly as a good way to break up the most serious moments of a book. When used to move the plot along, they have a habit of outstaying their welcome.

Never-the-less, this was a great book to start with, however, as it is noticeably one of the first Discworld novals that shifts focus from parodying fantasy novals to social and political issues. I don't think I would have been as heavily into the city watch books had I starte with, say, 'Guards! Guards!'.

 

[Tonyblack]

I agree - Jingo will always be a favourite of mine as Terry was showing his skills as a satirist, rather than just a funny writer. The Klatchian family living in A-M and their A-M born son who is conflicted by the country (city state) of his birth and the traditions of his historical culture, are very well observed. As is the hostility shown to the family by the A-M citizens. With the exception of The Last Continent, I think the books from Jingo onward tend to be some of Terry's best when it comes to satire (although there are one or two of the earlier books that showed it).

 

[Tonyblack]

Incidentally - don't worry about posting on old topics. The Discussion topics, in particular, were designed to be ongoing.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I agree - Jingo will always be a favourite of mine as Terry was showing his skills as a satirist, rather than just a funny writer. The Klatchian family living in A-M and their A-M born son who is conflicted by the country (city state) of his birth and the traditions of his historical culture, are very well observed. As is the hostility shown to the family by the A-M citizens. With the exception of The Last Continent, I think the books from Jingo onward tend to be some of Terry's best when it comes to satire (although there are one or two of the earlier books that showed it).

Oh yes! I remember this. The Goriff family, am I right? And when they have to leave, Carrot tries to tell the young boy about all the wonderful things in Klatch. The boy erupts: "Are you mad?! I don't care about any of that stuff. I was born in Ankh-Morpork!" etc.

I liked this scene very much, especially the resolution, where the boy and Carrot apologise to each other. Terry doesn't tell us why they're saying sorry, of course - he leaves that up to us to figure out. That's one mark of a good author - tell us what's happening, but not always why (also known as "show, don't tell").