SPOILERS Lord Vetinari Character Discussion

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Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
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Cardiff, Wales
#1
Ooops I totally forgot to post a new discussion yesterday, so I haven't given much thought to this initial post (unlike the character we are discussing).

So this discussion is about Lord Havelock Vetinari, Patrician and Tyrant of the city state of Ankh-Morpork.

This is one of Pratchett's characters that seems to have evolved from an early possible version in the very first books, to the complete (?) person he is in the final books. Unlike Carrot, for example, he's grown to perfection while having negative character traits, making him a far more interesting person.

Here's his Wiki Lord Vetinari
 

RathDarkblade

Moderator
City Watch
Mar 24, 2015
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#2
Hmm? What negative character traits? ;)

To me, Vetinari is the ultimate pragmatist. It's not for nothing that some people have compared him to Lorenzo de' Medici (also known as "The Magnificent" - for various reasons, which I won't go into here. The wiki-article has enough to explain why.) ;) Personally, I think Louis XI of France, or Henry VII of England, also qualify (though they had to govern an entire country, not just a city-state). Anyway.

Suffice it to say - and this is only for readers who don't know him very well - Vetinari is a subtle character; "The Spider King", to borrow the epithet applied to Louis XI.

The only plausible "negative character trait" I can think of is his hatred of mimes, which isn't that negative to me. He has a good working relationship with the major players like Vimes and Carrot, as well as the leaders of the major guilds. He works hard and expects other people to do likewise. He uses language with care, and never says something unless he means it. Surely none of those are a negative. *shrug*

His devotion to Wuffles is touching, and makes him more human. But it says something about him that, under his administration, Ankh-Morpork functions as a city for the first time in a century. Politically, it is stable, which allows it to make money (and become powerful) like never before.

Naturally, making money isn't the whole point of a city. But at least A-M isn't subject to a revolving-door patricianship (like what happened under Lord Winder, Lord Snapcase, etc.) ;)

One last point: of course Vetinari is a tyrant. But I'd argue that his enlightened tyranny is - paradoxically - far more transparent than many modern democracies I'd care to mention. I'd rather put Lord Vetinari in charge of Australia than any of the Prime Ministers we've had since John Howard's retirement in 2007, and that's saying something.

Vetinari's enlightened despotism reminds me of Sir Humphrey's point to Hacker, when the minister receives information about underhand dealings between British arms suppliers, middlemen, and Italian red terrorists. He wishes to raise the issue with the PM, and mentions this to Sir Humphrey. Humphrey advises him against opening ‘a can of worms’:

Humphrey: Government isn’t about morality.

Hacker: Oh, I see! what is it about, then?

Humphrey: Stability! Keeping things going. Preventing anarchy. Stopping society falling to bits. Still being here tomorrow.

Hacker: But what for? What is the ultimate purpose of government, if it isn’t for doing good?

Humphrey: Minister, government isn’t about good and evil, it is only about order or chaos.

Hacker: And it is order for Italian terrorists to get British bombs? And you don’t care?

Humphrey: [disdainfully] It is not my job to care. That’s what politicians are for. My job is to carry out government policy.

Hacker: Even if you think it is wrong?

Humphrey: Well, almost all government policy is wrong... but frightfully well carried out.

Hacker: Humphrey, have you ever known a civil servant to resign on a matter of principle?

Humphrey: [surprised] I should think not! What an appalling suggestion!

Hacker: For the first time I fully understand that you are only committed to means, and not to ends.

Humphrey: Well, as far as I am concerned, minister, and all my colleagues, there is no difference between means and ends.

Hacker: If you believe that Humphrey, you will go to hell.

Humphrey: [smiling] Minister, I had no idea that you had a theological bent.

Hacker: You are a moral vacuum, Humphrey.

Humphrey: If you say so, minister.
I suppose it's just as well that Vetinari uses his formidable intelligence to keep A-M together (i.e. keep the A-M guilds from going to war with each other). If Vetinari followed the advice of someone like Lord Rust (in Jingo), the temporarily united A-M would declare war on "Johnny Foreigner" and ... who knows. Even if A-M won, it would find more problems than opportunities, more frontiers to defend and angry people to pacify than it was worth bothering with (as Tacticus points out in his book).

But that's just my take on Vetinari. No doubt other people have their own opinions. :)
 
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#9
I'm keeping watch to hear what other people say first... I'll be playing Vetinari in a production of Going Postal later this year and want to see if others have insights that I can pull into my portrayal... I'll possibly post my own feelings here once I've had a chance to go through the script in more detail and work out some of it myself.
 

RathDarkblade

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Mar 24, 2015
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#10
Ooh! Chookas, Molokov! Have a good show! :)

Do you have any promo materials, etc.? Where's the show? Which company are you with?

Sorry for all the questions, but I've done shows and concerts for nearly 15 years now. So I'm obviously curious. ;)
 
#11
Performances are in November, Unseen Theatre Company, Adelaide - publicity material isn't up yet as we've not really started rehearsals. (I've done stuff with Unseen for almost 20 years... well a few plays in the early 00's and then came back to it 4 years ago, so there was a big gap in the middle).
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
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#12
Okay - Vetinari.

It seems to me that Vetinari is one of those characters of Terry's that demanded a bigger role than he had planned. The Patrician in the early books sounds nothing like Vetinari, which had caused many people to question whether it actually was him. Terry has definitively stated that, yes, this is Vetinari - albeit an early draft. I guess that makes a good deal of sense given the approximate timeline. We have to remember (of course) that, when Terry was writing these books, he didn't necessarily know what was ultimately going to happen thirty books or so down the line. So we have to accept the occasional slip or contradiction.

I feel that, to a degree, Vetinari has become a little more human as the series has progressed. Is this the case, or is it that we've just learned more about him? He would like to think that he is perfect - that he knows what is going to happen next in a vast series of events. However, sometimes he gets it spectacularly wrong and it is down to people like Vimes to save him. I think this is one of the reasons that he keeps Vimes close to hand.

In the Discworld Companion it states that Vetinari and Vimes are enemies. I disagree with this. They aren't friends either. I would say that they have a professional relationship. Vimes is a useful Pawn that became a Knight in Vetinari's three dimensional game of chess and Vimes has come to realise that Vetinari knows what he is doing, and get on with whatever he has been tasked to do.

So those are my thoughts for now - anyone else?
 

Terramax

Lance-Constable
Dec 27, 2018
18
1,000
#13
Definitely my favourite character, but I find it hard to add to what has already been said before.

I do, however, sometimes find it a bit too convenient that he knows of certain events so quickly without it being explained precisely how. Is it a case that he has people out there in the city with their ears very close to the ground, or is it that he knows the city workings in such a way that sees causalities to soon-to-be problem way ahead of others?

On a side note; thanks for the quote from Yes Prime Minister. It reminded me to order the DVD collection like I had meant to several months ago.
 

=Tamar

Lieutenant
May 20, 2012
12,004
2,900
#14
Vetinari has the advantage of having a reputation which he has carefully fed. He has a spy system that consists of everyone in the city, especially everyone who might have seen something. He calls them in for a brief interview and indicates that he expects frequent reports from now on. They are too frightened not to report from then on. He also has the Dark Clerks, and Drumknott. I believe it is stated somewhere that he doesn't plan for trouble because that would be much too late. Instead, he prepares (the dungeon setup, just in case) and instigates so he knows what is going to happen. Sometimes he's mistaken, but he is generally very good at thinking on his feet.
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,135
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#15
Vetinari and Vimes are certainly not enemies. For one thing, when Vimes first appears in Guards, Guards he's so "low" that he's not even wroth Vetinari's enmity. Over time, as Vimes rises in power (partly through the merits of his service in saving Vetinari's skin, but mostly through the machinations of Carrot and Vimes' marriage to Sybil), Vetinari uses Vimes to carry out his often understated wishes.

What's interesting about V's evolution over the series is he starts out as rather reactionary in terms of opposing progress. He is personally against things like moving pictures and music with rocks, although he does not strictly forbid these cultural phenomena from taking their natural course (usually to some kind of magical oblivion).

Perhaps the first glimpse of V truly broadening his view of things comes from Feet of Clay, when, presented with the evidence of Dorfl's home-ground sentience, he somewhat reluctantly agrees that golems are a sapient species, rather than a soul-less tool. In Jingo we see his capability of both manipulating Vimes to carry out his wishes (to stop the war) so it leaves him an opening to vanquish the Klatchian effort through booby-trapped diplomacy. One could argue that the events of Jingo convince him that for AM to be first and foremost of the DW cities it must lead the world in both economic hegemony (making even AM's enemies dependent on it for goods and services) and technological progress. Thus, the forward-thinking Vetinari of TFE and Thud!, the Truth, the Moist books and Unseen Academicals.

While I do agree that V's personality deepens, I find his characterization in Pterry's last books troubling. I really dislike his drunken pontificating in UA, and his angry tirades against the Times crossword puzzler creator in Raising Steam. V's strengths are his subtlety and his ability to convey with a sentence, a gesture and an eyebrow what others require monologues to communicate. When he becomes over-talkative, and overly affected by trivia, his character suffers.
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
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Jul 25, 2008
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#16
Some great points. V seems to actually be pretty hands off in some respects. He will see the direction some situation is heading and, to a degree, he will let it play out. It's almost like a personal game he plays with himself. He allowed Music With Rocks In, the Flickies, the rise of the Press and even some fundamental, and possibly dangerous, beliefs on behalf of the dwarfs, to proceed because he learns by it. In MP he learned about Celebrity for the first time it seems, and was more curious than dismayed. One of the problems I had with UA is the unusual interest he took in changing the game. He's usually more inclined to let things self destruct.

In regard to how he knows so much - I think that, to a degree, he lets people think he knows what they are up to. It's clear that there are conspiracies that he fails to notice in several of the books.
 

RathDarkblade

Moderator
City Watch
Mar 24, 2015
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Melbourne, Victoria
#17
I'm not so sure about Vetinari's publicly position against the Clickies (not Flickies ;)) and Music with Rocks In. It may be that he was playing a double-bluff; he could see that these phenomena were very popular, and would be so no matter what he did. So he went on record against them in order to make them more and more popular, until - predictably - they combusted. ;)

But who knows with Vetinari. He's known for keeping his cards very close to his chest.
 

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