SPOILERS Night Watch Discussion *spoilers*

[raisindot]

Do any of you think Carcer parodies a real-life serial killer, or is he just a general psychopath?

I always thought of him as a mix of Mr. Teatime's sociopathy and Mr. Tulip's brute strength, without either of the other villains' redeeming 'qualities.' And I thought the name 'Carcer" stood for cancer--as Carcer seems to be one of those types of totally unredeemable diseases that lives only to infiltrate the body public and opportunistically destroy it from within.

One also might believe that had Vimes not stopped him, Carcer would have eventually become patrician in the past-time, given his talent for intimidation.

Jeff in Boston

 

[raisindot]

Is Lu-Tze Actually sweeping up USED SONKY'S?????? OMG the US cover just has Sam stepping into a mirror. :twisted: :twisted:

Oh my goodness--lilac-colored Sonkies? I suppose Pepe would approve!

Are Sonkys mentioned before The Fifth Elephant? There, they seemed to be a bit more of a recent-er-development, one quite appropriate for the Vetinari era.

Jeff in Boston

 

[Dotsie]

Dunno about the sonky's. They could have been invented years previously I suppose, but without re-reading TFE I wouldn't comment.

I love love love this book, it's one of my favourites. I agree it doesn't have so many of the hilarious one-liners, but then my favourite quotes come from books that I find it hard to read now, because the stories aren't anything like as good as the recent ones.

Dr Lawn - so sarcastic, I think he's great
The Agony Aunts - I thought this was a genius idea, I wish we knew more about them. Are they retired seamstresses do you think? Or just vicious old biddies for hire?
Vetinari - seems to become a lot more human in this book, I thought the tiger book was another brilliant idea. We see that he wasn't just an assassin, he was in a league of his own. Explains a lot about his apparent near-superhuman abilities - if he can disappear, doing a crossword in minutes and resisting the effects of alcohol are mere child's play. I also loved his interplay with Downey, & how it must stick in that man's throat now to have unsuccessfully tried to bully the patrician.

I think that when "our" Sam was a boy, he was taught by Keel. Events have definitely changed - the Morphic Street conspiracy and the attack on the barricade were completely different the second time around - a slightly dodgy memory wouldn't change those things. And I think that Vetinari also had a role in the original revolution, otherwise he wouldn't have already been wearing the lilac.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Vetinari's revolutionary role is definitely concrete no matter how you read it as that's the only place he comes into contact with Keel/Vimes although he did observe him a few times I think Vetinari's part was all channelled through Aunty and she would still have sent him out to 'mind' Keel at the end once Snapcase's ruthless streak was apparent.

I'd forgotten about Morphic Street but that doesn't necessarily preclude Vimes being trapped in a time loop. What if Carcer wasn't there the 'first' time around?

It's tempting to think of Carcer, the malignant cancer, as a composite of any Roundworld or even Discworld serial killers, but he's all attitude and rather random in some ways. I'd say he's more Pin and Tulip in his methods and not too much Teatime in that he's got no brakes at all and acts much more spontaneously and cheerfully too than any of those. Carcer does remind me a little of Harvey Keitel though - only much happier (in Pulp Fiction rather than Reservoir)

 

[swreader]

A couple of interesting questions/speculations. First-- how old are the Agony Aunts and are the ones we hear references to in the later watch books? Or are they perhaps a "generic" enforcement team? I've always thought of them as in their 40s or 50s, but if they are that age in Nightwatch they're incredibly spry in the later books.

I agree, Jan, that Vetinari seems to have had a role in the original version of the GGR, although we'll probably never know for sure. But I disagree that his Aunt would have needed to send him out to "rescue" Keel. While Keel may have taught Vimes all he knows, and even destroyed the Particulars--we know he was killed on the barricades. There is no reason that Snapcase would ever have been aware of him. He seems to have been a very good Sergeant, but he was no Commander Vimes, and that was what Snapcase feared.

 

[Dotsie]

Surely we don't actually know what sort of sergeant Keel was? All we do know is that he was a sergeant, and that Vimes isn't. Doesn't mean that Keel didn't have bags of krisma.

Although Keel might not have died after being chased through the streets by Carcer and his men, something brought Vetinari to the fight the first time around.

 

[Tonyblack]

There's quite a long entry for the Agony Aunts in the Discworld Companion that I'll (maybe) type out later.

As to Carcer's name. Carcer is the Roman name for 'prison' (I believe) and it's where we get 'incarceration' from.

Definition: Carcer was the Roman state prison. The carcer was used primarily for detention, although it was also used for some executions. The underground section of the carcer was called Tullianum, perhaps having been built by Servius Tullius. Ancus Martius is also credited with building it and the name may derive from a word for spring, tullus. The seven-meter in diameter Tullianum was accessible through a hole in the roof.

Also Known As: Mamertine Prison

Examples:
From the Latin carcer comes the English word incarceration (in - carcer - ation).

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Although Keel might not have died after being chased through the streets by Carcer and his men, something brought Vetinari to the fight the first time around.

Ned Coates was very impressed with Keel too, which is why he gave Vimes such a hard ride - actually that whole part of the story with Ned as the 'mole' revolutionary in the Watch, is quite intriguing and doesn't really get too developed against Vimes' memories of that time - which he wouldn't have had maybe as that could all have gone on above his teenage head of course.

One thing that did occur to me in that area was whether Ned Coates was part of the reason Keel was called to AM - just some idle speculation, but that might fit in with why Vetinari's Aunty (whatever she was called my mind has just filtered her out) was fairly keen on getting him on side and perhaps that was something that Coates being in the same camp might have discussed - very tentative I know, but co-conspirators tend to swap nominations for sympathisers and Aunty Vetinari might perhaps have had some indirect influence in getting the malleable Watch Captain (doesn't he remind you of Uncle Arthur in Dad's Army? ) to recruit Keel from Quirm perhaps?

I think I'm spending too much time with pooh y'know

 

[Dotsie]

Definitely. I can't see any connection between Lady Roberta Meserole ( ) and Ned Coates. I just think "Keel" made himself interesting.

 

[Tonyblack]

This is my reading of Vetinari being involved in the revolution.

We don't know if he was actually wearing the lilac in the original timeline. Keel, in that timeline was killed on the barricade. It was Carcer prolonging the conflict and Vimes leading the group away that got Vetinari involved. He appeared around about the time that Vimes was apparently killed and joined in the melee - thus entitling him to wear the lilac.

The thing is that whether or not he did that in the original timeline doesn't matter, because Sam Vimes changed the timeline sufficiently that he did get involved.

So as far as Vimes may be aware, before he went back in time, Vetinari may never have worn the lilac. But by the time he got back, Vetinari would have always worn it.

Sam Vimes does change things, but not significantly. When he gets back those changes (as far as everyone else is concerned) have always been so.

Presumably, when he broke up the Morphic Street meeting he saved the lives of people who originally died in the original timeline.

Time travel books/movies give me a headache!

 

[Dotsie]

So as far as Vimes may be aware, before he went back in time, Vetinari may never have worn the lilac. But by the time he got back, Vetinari would have always worn it.

No, because Vimes is outside the loop, and anyway he sees Vetinari wearing the lilac before he goes back - as do we, and we are definitely outside the loop.

You should hear me talking about Star Trek

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

In the "Zen Garden" at the Monkery, there was a used sonky in the mix... the only thing Lu-Tze got upset about was the empty beer bottle. :twisted: I believe the Used Sonky was a mettyfor about life and death...

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

In the "Zen Garden" at the Monkery, there was a used sonky in the mix... the only thing Lu-Tze got upset about was the empty beer bottle. I believe the Used Sonky was a mettyfor about life and death...

Aha!

Didn't Vimes throw something trashy into the garden from the street side once he got back to the present? I think it is starting to look like 'Keel' was always older Vimes...

 

[Dotsie]

Not even close Why wouldn't he remember the peace garden anyway? He didn't know about it before the time loop, so effect followed cause, therefore he hadn't gone back until he went back. Or something.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Yeah but WHEN was the garden?

They had Qu doing his experimental stuff back inna mists of prehistoric Ankh and just because Lu Tze led Sam/Keel to the garden in the 'past' of A-M doesn't mean the garden was in that time span as well. - Why else would Lu Tze get puzzled as to why the beer can was there? The other explanation of that might be that it wasn't there the last time the loop/trousers/quantum event happened...?

The History Monks could have the garden anywhere along the timeline and that might also explain how they retrieved the silver cigar case so quickly too

 

[Sjoerd3000]

The cigar case came with Vimes when he was transported through time and then got stolen when he arrived in the past. After Vimes has visitid the garden again, Qu says to Lu Tze he can´t mess with time again. So Lu Tze sends out some monks to go and visit corrupt jewellers etc. and try to find the cigar case.

So no time travel was needed to find the cigar case again (I think)

 

[Dotsie]

Correctamundo

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Oh gods I went and lost a post somehow there. :x
Yes - the History Monks are cops as well so the cigar case was just a question of doing the rounds of the local fences in young Sam's real time.

The rest stands though - the Monks Ankh HQ appears to be pivotal in time (a little like their main home with the same day forever thingie) and rather like a TARDIS in effect. Lu Tze was really wobbly over the beer can, which is why he said that he didn't want to change too many things in their rightful timeline.

That's why I'm putting forward the hypothesis on the basis that Lu Tze brings Vimes/Keel in for briefing in older Sam's real time not in young Sam's? And also why Vimes took such delight in chucking that beer can over the zen garden wall when he was back in his proper place? :twisted: In fact that scenario pans out intellectually because the Monks can use that 'far real-time present' as a check against how well Commander Vimes is doing back in old-time present...

That Pterry - he's just having a laugh again 8) Now test the hypothesis please Dotsie

 

[Dotsie]

Dotsie will get back to you.

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Sorry to burst your bubble Jan, but I think twas a cigar butt he threw... *digging through her books to find the Blasted Book 'o' the Month*

As I said, I have read that book like 4 times at LEAST! LoL

Edit: Oh dear, as I open the book I come upon someone's Signature quote of Death telling Lord Winder this is it!!! Ack now I have too much to do... Aargh! :twisted:

Edit: edit:: The last four lines of the book. "He threw his cigar stub over the fence. He heard it land on gravel, which moved a little. And then he went home. And the world turned toward morning." Phew... and No, Vetinari did Not kill Lord Winder, fear did the job for him.