SPOILERS Pyramids Discussion *Spoilers*

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poohcarrot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Sep 13, 2009
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NOT The land of the risen Son!!
#61
Pyramids is about religion, but I don't think I've ever said religion was the main theme of the book, have I? o_O

Pyramids is also about Egypt, Greece, camels, Ankh Morpork etc etc. This discussion lasts for at least a month, so first I want to get exhaust the religious aspects.

In my opinion it raises some fascinating religious questions, if other people think it doesn't, fair enough. :laugh:
 

Dotsie

Sergeant-at-Arms
Jul 28, 2008
9,069
2,850
#63
poohcarrot said:
Pyramids is about religion, but I don't think I've ever said religion was the main theme of the book, have I? o_O
:rolleyes: The first thing I said was that it was not the main theme, and you argued with me!
 

poohcarrot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Sep 13, 2009
8,317
2,300
NOT The land of the risen Son!!
#64
I've got one more post to make on the religion topic, the punch line to the utter twaddle I've been talking about recently. :laugh: Then move on to the main event. :twisted:

Next I will try to explain my theory about humour (humor).

Incidently, if you read Pyramids when smashed, it really does make you think laterally.

Pyramids - page 27 said:
...the colours on the far side of blackness, the colours that you get if you split blackness with an 8-sided prism. They are almost impossible to describe in a non-magical environment, but if someone were to try they'd probably start by telling you to smoke something illegal and take a good look at a starling's wing.
 
#66
Starlings... Nasty, vicious birds, BUT if you look at the wings they are very pretty iridescent.

Pyramids is about control. So is Religion. Many people in the past never learned to read, priests and pastors were used to disseminate the "rules" set down by other leaders. Easily cowed people are easy to control. There is a reason that followers are called a "Flock", it is because sheep aren't all that bright and must be led or they wander off and die.

Control was Dios' best weapon, if you train the people to run to the authorities because they knew they had broken a rule. If the fear is that deeply ingrained, the sheep are very easy to control, including the ruler. When every moment of every day is controlled, it is easy to befuddle the supposed ruler.

Pooh, you can make all the insinuations about religion that you want. It is like Dotsie said, you seem to be very concerned about god and Jesus for a "confirmed" athiest. I understand that in order to argue you must know thine enemy, but fixation is another story altogether.

My opinion is that Pyramids is about differing methods of control. Dios, The Assassin's Guild, then Dios again. The other plot subthemes are where the fun is.
 

poohcarrot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Sep 13, 2009
8,317
2,300
NOT The land of the risen Son!!
#68
(I'll save the religion punchline until later :laugh: )

MY THEORY ABOUT HUMOUR

LEVEL 1
There is a banana skin on a path in London. A man walks down the street, stands on it and goes arse over tit. :laugh:
This is funny. It is also predictable, logical and requires no thinking.
I will call this kind of humour "Benny Hill" humour.

LEVEL 2
There is a banana skin on a path in London. A man walks down the street, sees it, steps over it, then is savaged by a polar bear. o_O :laugh:
This is funny. However it isn't predictable, isn't logical and requires a little thought.
I will call this kind of humour "John Malkovich" humour. (As in the movie "Being John Malkovich")

LEVEL 3
There is a banana skin on a path in London. A man walks down the street, sees it, steps over it, then is mugged by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels while they are discussing which drug to use in the phrase "Religion is the ----- of the people. :eek: o_O :laugh:
This is funny. However it isn't predictable, isn't logical, and requires some knowledge acquired beforehand to understand, or it can act as a tool to educate the observer
I will call this kind of humour "Monty Python" humour.

eg; Ask me to name 10 philosophers and I can within seconds, because I know the Monty Python Philosophers song.

Level 1 humour the Americans are better than the British.

Level 2 humour the British are better.

Level 3 humour, I can't think of any American TV show or movie that even gets remotely near the likes of Monty Python, Blackadder or Yes Prime Minister. (please post examples if you can think of any)

To me Pyramids, and most if not all TP novels, are packed full of level 3 type humour. The Xeno's paradox, the Assassin's Guild or the riddle of the Spinx are just three prime examples.

Another Pyramids example

The camel is called You Bastard. Level 1 - camels are notoriously stroppy creatures.
The camel is the best mathematician on the Disc. Level 2 - this is completely illogical.
The camel actually does complex calculations involving vectors, phi etc. Level 3 - do you know what phi is?

(A little later I will test this theory to see how valid it is.)
 
Oct 10, 2009
1,196
2,600
italy-genova
#69
First of all, I haven't read yet your latest post, pooh, but I will with all my attention. :p

I wanted to say, I'm amazed to see that Dios is called Dios in the English version too :p DIO means GOD in Italian :laugh: , and in a way he fancied himself like a God deciding what to make of that reign and of those people.
 
Oct 10, 2009
1,196
2,600
italy-genova
#70
I don't understand. I liked the Assassin's Guild bit, but it didn't make me laugh to tears... was it so funny?
I laughed for the sphinx, but "Xeno's paradox"?
About the camel, it was funny as soon I discovered who was the best matematician in the world, after that he was just a camel, I didn't follow all his thoughts. I thought: "yeah yeah, I know you can do wonders with math". I'm glad I know now his name, I wondered a little about that, but they got the spirit right during the translation :p
 

Trish

Corporal
Apr 23, 2009
518
1,925
Wintersville, Ohio
#71
Sjoerd3000 said:
...religion is touched upon in the novel but it isn't the main theme.

I enjoyed this book very much [and] it made me a lot, but I just don't see religion has the most important theme in the book

Religion being the main theme? Yes and no.
There are several themes in Pyramids, but the most noticeable is power.

Like a good priest, Dios had no faith in the gods and their existence --or not-- didn't mater. It was the forms, the worship, the rules of religion that mattered to him and his office.


The setting of Pyramids is what we refer to as the "ancient world" -- Egypt & Greece, but also Babylonia. The Babylonian gods were very vengeful. Read The Epic of Gilgamesh and see for yourself. Tiamat is an outstanding example of "bitch."

Confusing setting, theme, tone and mood are mistakes very often made and easily understandable. I loved Pyramids for its sideways humor and, literally, backwards look at organized religion.


Teppic is educated. It's difficult to convince an educated and aware populace to believe (which is altogether different that faith) in gods or a God. And Teppic brings that skepticism back home with him.

But when his father's corpse is being mummified and his pyramid built, Teppic caves to the customs he grew up with --his default setting, more or less.

Why? Because pressure, peer or otherwise, is powerful thing.


Likely, Pratchett is warning his readers to keep an eye on those we elevate to positions of power because it truly is heady stuff. eg: Dios certainly needed a comeuppance.


Me, I loved the "ancestors" bit and the dead king who said: "No, what you feel now is myld dislyke" regarding the pyramids themselves.
 

Penfold

Sergeant-at-Arms
Dec 29, 2009
9,045
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Worthing
www.lenbrookphotography.com
#72
Pyramids is definitely Level 3 Humour if you follow Pooh's model of humour standards!

The Assassins Guild amused me, but because I hadn't read Tom Browns Schooldays, I seem to have missed out of a lot of its humour too.
I've set up a link for a brief explanation of the original Xeno's Paradox to compare with Terry's version. Hope this is helpful.

I tried reading up on Phi but it flew over my head and I got a migraine trying to work out its trajectory. Basically, it does go someway to explaining why camels are so bloody good at gobbing on people!
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,855
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#75
It seems that a lot of the humour in Pyramids relies on the reader being 'in' on the joke. As Penfold pointed out - if you haven't read Tom Brown's Schooldays then several of the 'jokes' are meaningless. The same with the Ephebians - quite a bit of classical knowledge is required to 'spot the reference'. It becomes less of a story and more a game. This was especially true in Moving Pictures and Soul Music.

I tend to agree about You Bastard - on the first reading one wonders who this 'Disc's Greatest Mathematician' is. Then we find that it's a camel and the joke falls a bit flat.

Pyramids is much more a pastiche than a satire. Most of Terry's earlier books are pastiche. My personal feeling is that Terry's satires are much better than his pastiches.

Moving Pictures (for example) used to be one of my favourite books, but once you get all the jokes, there's not much left to enjoy. Rereading it is like doing a crossword that you've already solved before - entertaining the first time but unsatisfying subsequently. MP is now one of my least favourite Discworld books. :)
 

Penfold

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Dec 29, 2009
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#76
Tonyblack said:
It seems that a lot of the humour in Pyramids relies on the reader being 'in' on the joke. As Penfold pointed out - if you haven't read Tom Brown's Schooldays then several of the 'jokes' are meaningless. The same with the Ephebians - quite a bit of classical knowledge is required to 'spot the reference'. It becomes less of a story and more a game. This was especially true in Moving Pictures and Soul Music.

Pyramids is much more a pastiche than a satire. Most of Terry's earlier books are pastiche. My personal feeling is that Terry's satires are much better than his pastiches.
I think most of Terry's early works (Pyramids being his 6th Discworld book, I think) relies too heavily on his audience being 'in' on the joke. If someone has no knowledge of Shakespeare's plays, H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos, Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series, Robert E. Howards Conan stories, to name but a few references, then it is little wonder that they picked up the book, 'didn't get it', and never tried his later works.

I find the evolution of Terry's style quite interesting; his progression from a sketch show style of story telling to what is today, a somewhat profound and satirical treatise. I think we can see the beginnings of this in Pyramids (and hints of this in earlier works) from the issues already under discussion - religion, conservatism and the fear of change, need for control, etc. Also, I believe he may have got the idea for Small Gods from the writing of this book;
"He found Ptraci sitting on the grass under a poplar tree, feeding the tortoise. He gave it a suspicious look, in case it was a god trying it on. It did not look like a god. If it was a god, it was putting on an incredibly good act.
She was feeding it a lettuce leaf" (p.205)


Of course, much of what I've just written could be just so much camel dung and it could just be a book that Terry enjoyed writing!
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#78
Oh dear-- I'm afraid Pooh that your "Theory of Humor" is just pooh. The whole thing is based more or less in terms of visual humor which is hardly the way to analyze a novel. Additionally, you reveal a lack of awareness of the breadth and complexity of American humor. We are not known particularly for our "Level 1" humor-- the pratfall. Though using your terms, I suppose that the Three Stooges and the Keystone Kops match that. But you ignore the type of humor or satire illustrated by Chaplain, Will Rogers, Mark Twain, Joseph Heller and Sinclair Lewis, to mention only a few.

If we restate your definition as that of Merriam-Webster definition of humor

" (a) that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous (b) the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous (c ): something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing"

one can say that Pyramids is a humorous novel. And certainly Pratchet's early works rely heavily on humor. As Tony noted, and Penfold expanded on brilliantly, that is pretty much all the early novels are. Once you’ve read them once (and tried to find the allusions or punny names) there’s not much more there. That is the reason I find COM, LF, and Pyramids almost unreadable--even after 3 more tries at Pyramids.

But Pratchett is so much more than a humorous or comic novelist. What he is known and recognized for, as illustrated in the detailed discussion of the various form of satire in Wiki is as one of the great satiric novelists of the 20th century and beyond.

"In the United Kingdom, the literary genre of satire also began to grow at the height of World War II and the years of the Cold War. George Orwell's Animal Farm marked the beginning of a political satire, with talking animals who plot to rule the world. Upon defeating Farmer Jones, they break out into an era of totalitarianism. One of the most popular satirists in the history of British literature is the recently knighted Sir Terry Pratchett, whose internationally best-selling Discworld series has sold more than 55,000,000 copies."

In his ability to explore war, religion, slavery and other social phenomena through his use of the satiric novel, Pratchett joins the great satirists--Jonathan Swift, Charles Dickens, Mark Twain.
 

poohcarrot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Sep 13, 2009
8,317
2,300
NOT The land of the risen Son!!
#79
swreader said:
Oh dear-- I'm afraid Pooh that your "Theory of Humor" is just pooh. The whole thing is based more or less in terms of visual humor which is hardly the way to analyze a novel. Additionally, you reveal a lack of awareness of the breadth and complexity of American humor. We are not known particularly for our "Level 1" humor-- the pratfall. Though using your terms, I suppose that the Three Stooges and the Keystone Kops match that. But you ignore the type of humor or satire illustrated by Chaplain, Will Rogers, Mark Twain, Joseph Heller and Sinclair Lewis, to mention only a few.

If we restate your definition as that of Merriam-Webster definition of humor

" (a) that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous (b) the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous (c ): something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing"

one can say that Pyramids is a humorous novel. And certainly Pratchet's early works rely heavily on humor. As Tony noted, and Penfold expanded on brilliantly, that is pretty much all the early novels are. Once you’ve read them once (and tried to find the allusions or punny names) there’s not much more there. That is the reason I find COM, LF, and Pyramids almost unreadable--even after 3 more tries at Pyramids.

But Pratchett is so much more than a humorous or comic novelist. What he is known and recognized for, as illustrated in the detailed discussion of the various form of satire in Wiki is as one of the great satiric novelists of the 20th century and beyond.

"In the United Kingdom, the literary genre of satire also began to grow at the height of World War II and the years of the Cold War. George Orwell's Animal Farm marked the beginning of a political satire, with talking animals who plot to rule the world. Upon defeating Farmer Jones, they break out into an era of totalitarianism. One of the most popular satirists in the history of British literature is the recently knighted Sir Terry Pratchett, whose internationally best-selling Discworld series has sold more than 55,000,000 copies."

In his ability to explore war, religion, slavery and other social phenomena through his use of the satiric novel, Pratchett joins the great satirists--Jonathan Swift, Charles Dickens, Mark Twain.
SWreader

You simply can't understand my theory because you believe Monty Python to be purely "visual slapstick" humour. You couldn't be any further from the truth. If you don't get Monty Python, you won't get Pyramids.

Here's a clip to help you understand what Monty Python really is all about.
You don't need to watch, just listen. Most of Monty Python humour is in the words. Although if you do watch, you'll be able to follow the dialogue (which I'm sure you might need to), in order to understand exactly what is said, because there are some pretty long and difficult words in it. :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd_zkME ... r_embedded

"In his ability to explore war, religion, slavery and other social phenomena through his use of the satiric novel, Pratchett joins the great satirists--Jonathan Swift, Charles Dickens, Mark Twain AND MONTY PYTHON"

Feel free to give me examples of American humour that comes anywhere close to this level of satire. :p
 

poohcarrot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Sep 13, 2009
8,317
2,300
NOT The land of the risen Son!!
#80
TESTING THE THEORY
(The following is purely subjective)

I'll look at the TV show "Friends" and apply my theory.
I enjoyed Friends, it was harmless fluff, but I wouldn't say in any way insightful or satirical. I would rate it as a good Level 1 series.
However, of the characters, I'd rate Monica, Joey and Rachel as level 1. Chandler and Phoebe sometimes achieved level 2 status, but not very often. Ros doesn't even deserve a level because he was so wet and drippy and pathetic. :laugh:

I will now choose 6 Forum members even make 3 bold predictions which it will be interesting to know if I'm correct or not.

Sjoerd likes Monty Python (Blackadder etc.) therefore he likes Pyramids.
SWreader doesn't like Monty Python therefore she doesn't like Pyramids.
Jeffinboston likes Monty Python, but doesn't like Pyramids. He is obviously the exception that proves the rule. :laugh:
Tony doesn't like Pyramids.
Who's Wee Dug often quotes Monty Python.
Dotsie says Pyramids made her laugh.

Therefore my theory states that;
Tony probably doesn't love Monty Python.
Who's Wee Dug likes Pyramids.
Dotsie likes Monty Python
 

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