SPOILERS Small Gods Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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The Vorbis's eyes color discrepancy is one that could be attributed to artistic license. I wouldn't call that an error. But, after re-reading the section about the flashes, I realize you're correct about that. On the boat, while looking at the flashes on the desert whilst talking with the Captain, Brutha out loud counts "Seven, then four..." or something similar. But when reporting the total number to Vorbis, he says he counted "Six flashes, followed by a pause of five heartbeats, then eight flashes, another pause, then two flashes." SInce Vorbis responds "Three quarters" after this, my interpretation was that the first two numbers of flashes represented a fraction (6/8), and the last two numbers represented a divisor (2), meaning 6/8 divided by 2 = 3/4, which I interpreted to mean that either the troops were 3/4 of the way to Ephebe or that 3/4 had survived the trek.
So what accounts for Brutha's initial counting discrepancy? If you wanted to give Pterry artistic credit, you could say that, since the captain was talking heresy to Brutha that the latter considered him to be an enemy, and deliberately "mis-announced" the flashes he said out loud to deceive the Captain. But as you said, Brutha has not learned deception at this point. My feeling is that Pterry himself made a writing mistake that was never caught by him or his copy editors. But at this point this error and other narrative (rather than typographical) errors in past books have been repeated over and over in various printings that it makes no sense to go back and try to "interpret" Pterry's real intent. The books represent the words he wrote at the time. Let them stay as they are, warts and all. It doesn't make you love him any less and shows that he was just as human as the rest of us.
So what accounts for Brutha's initial counting discrepancy? If you wanted to give Pterry artistic credit, you could say that, since the captain was talking heresy to Brutha that the latter considered him to be an enemy, and deliberately "mis-announced" the flashes he said out loud to deceive the Captain. But as you said, Brutha has not learned deception at this point. My feeling is that Pterry himself made a writing mistake that was never caught by him or his copy editors. But at this point this error and other narrative (rather than typographical) errors in past books have been repeated over and over in various printings that it makes no sense to go back and try to "interpret" Pterry's real intent. The books represent the words he wrote at the time. Let them stay as they are, warts and all. It doesn't make you love him any less and shows that he was just as human as the rest of us.
Agreed. I've since been told that Pterry once acknowledged that the number discrepancy was from a change he'd made and he (and all the copyeditors) had missed the remnants of the first version (the 7-4 version was changed to the 6-8-2 version).
Except when they don't... such as the changes made by the editors in The Truth.
Having been an English Lit major, I know how much paper is spent discussing the placement of commas in the various editions of such things as Blake's poems. Pterry's work is already being scrutinized in literary circles. Even aside from hoping to save a few trees, I find that little, fixable discrepancies are likely to throw me slightly out of the story. Oh well, students looking for ideas for papers will have material for decades.
Except when they don't... such as the changes made by the editors in The Truth.
Having been an English Lit major, I know how much paper is spent discussing the placement of commas in the various editions of such things as Blake's poems. Pterry's work is already being scrutinized in literary circles. Even aside from hoping to save a few trees, I find that little, fixable discrepancies are likely to throw me slightly out of the story. Oh well, students looking for ideas for papers will have material for decades.
Then, good lord, I hope you've never read anything by William Faulkner. I've never seen so many typos in various editions of his books that have never been corrected even to this day. His often idiosyncratic use of punctuation aside, in just about all of his "classic" books you can find numerous sentences missing articles, prepositions, closing quotes and periods. I pity the poor typesetters who had to sort through his drunkenly written manuscripts almost as much as the proofreaders who were clearly overwhelmed at the task of trying to edit--let alone comprehend--his hedge-thick prose.
Getting back to the whole issues of mistakes, typos, etc. in Pterry's books, particularly in this case the inconsistent "flash counts': Small Gods was published when, in the 1990s? In all these years, its' been reprinted numerous times, in both hardcover and paperback, and yet, nearly 20 years later, this particularly "mistake" has never been corrected, even though (according to what Tamar said her previous post) Pterry was aware of this mistake. And mostly likely aware of many of the other 'small" mistakes or narrative inconsistencies in his books that weren't the result of a copy editor's meddling or printer's error.
I don't think think that this means that Pterry was a sloppy writer or didn't care about his literary "legacy." I think he is simply typical of most authors in that he wasn't anally retentive about making sure his books were "perfect" both in terms of narrative consistency or in "error free" print. Most authors don't go back and tweak their old books. It's done. Time to move on. It's we readers who get more upset about this stuff than authors do. I'm sure Pterry was really more amused than bothered when the fanboys brought up inconsistencies from book and book. He had the sense of humor and well grounded perspective in life that many of his founders often lack.
I don't think think that this means that Pterry was a sloppy writer or didn't care about his literary "legacy." I think he is simply typical of most authors in that he wasn't anally retentive about making sure his books were "perfect" both in terms of narrative consistency or in "error free" print. Most authors don't go back and tweak their old books. It's done. Time to move on. It's we readers who get more upset about this stuff than authors do. I'm sure Pterry was really more amused than bothered when the fanboys brought up inconsistencies from book and book. He had the sense of humor and well grounded perspective in life that many of his founders often lack.
Pterry had the journalist's attitude, that the newspaper would be used to wrap trash probably within 12 hours. It is also true that fixing a typo that has already seen print is actually labor-intensive and hence expensive. Publishers don't like to do it; once the book is paid for, they don't care what the reader reaction is unless it's so strong and publicized that it causes other people to not buy the book. I understand that. I just wish that they had paid more attention right from the start, because often a tiny detail _does_ make a difference, especially in Pterry's work.
It's the job of a copy-editor to catch things the author missed in the last revision. I know they have to work fast under pressure, but they don't have to understand the whole story to put in a simple query to the author. The overall book overcomes the discrepancies, but it still makes a difference to me, because in many cases I don't know which version Pterry preferred.
With regard to existing differences between the US and the UK editions, if the original computer file (dare we hope for a printout?) is still available, it would be possible to know what was Pterry and what was an editor's idea that Pterry didn't have the time or energy to fight. I remember reading a post by him in which he said "he went to the mat" for a word in Thief of Time. (If I recall correctly the word was "rusk". It's roughly ten years and four computers and operating systems ago.)
It's the job of a copy-editor to catch things the author missed in the last revision. I know they have to work fast under pressure, but they don't have to understand the whole story to put in a simple query to the author. The overall book overcomes the discrepancies, but it still makes a difference to me, because in many cases I don't know which version Pterry preferred.
With regard to existing differences between the US and the UK editions, if the original computer file (dare we hope for a printout?) is still available, it would be possible to know what was Pterry and what was an editor's idea that Pterry didn't have the time or energy to fight. I remember reading a post by him in which he said "he went to the mat" for a word in Thief of Time. (If I recall correctly the word was "rusk". It's roughly ten years and four computers and operating systems ago.)
Back to Small Gods... speaking of typos. Brutha had to copy out roughly 350 scrolls (half the library of 700 scrolls), and he didn't know how to read or write. Any bets how many typos he made? He also would have had to learn to paint, to reproduce the pictures of birds and animals. If he was lucky, one of the scrolls was about how to paint. In a hundred years, that's an average of three and a half scrolls per year. I hope some of them were short, because even pTerry didn't write more than three books most years. While Brutha didn't have to compose the contents, he had a slower method of production. Allowing three months per scroll, he might have been finished by the end of the hundred years, if he wasn't too busy running the Citadel. I wonder whether he wrote them down in the order he saw them, or somehow chose which ones to do first. Did he draw the geometric figures, or did he learn to paint first because the birds were beautiful? Urn would have wanted him to copy out the ones on mechanics. Were there other sources of copies, or didn't anybody but Ephebians bother with their writings? If some scrolls could be bought, that would save him some time. De Chelonian Mobile would be readily available, of course.
I think you are kind of missing the point. The whole premise that someone should have such a memory is pretty silly to start with. Terry is, I think, trying to show by allegory, that the Brutha at the start of the book is incredibly empty headed. His naivety is due to the fact that he's only ever known one book. It has been hammered into him to such a point that he cannot conceive that it could be wrong and that nay other book could possibly contain anything worth knowing.
As the book proceeds, he meets his god and finds that, not only is the god lacking, it also becomes clear to Brutha that, although the god actually exists, that god has nothing to do with the holy book that has been his life. The more Brutha learns about the world outside the citadel, the more the one book makes less sense. He becomes exposed to much of the knowledge of the world - the true facts - the less naive he becomes.
This is a book about religious fundamentalism. It is a book that shows that clearly, Mankind make gods what they are. Gods are originally created to explain something unexplainable. The more we learn the less we need gods. Ultimately, it's the truth of the world that Brutha discovers that makes him a prophet and wise leader of his people. All Om is concerned about is that people believe in him. He's not interested in how people live their lives - that is for the leaders of men to decide. Vorbis is, in a way, like the Brutha at the start of the book. He refuses to accept outside knowledge and uses his ignorance as a club to beat his people into shape - the shape that he has decided it should be. Brutha at the end of the book, lets people decide for themselves what they believe and encourages them to seek out and discover for themselves the knowledge of the world.
So the whole thing about having such a perfect memory is almost like giving a character a super power. It's a literary method to achieve a point. Of course it makes no sense that he can recall things that he can't possibly understand and, of course he probably wouldn't be able to recreate much of what he committed to memory. It's Terry way of showing that knowledge of real things is far better than ignorance and belief in things supernatural.
As the book proceeds, he meets his god and finds that, not only is the god lacking, it also becomes clear to Brutha that, although the god actually exists, that god has nothing to do with the holy book that has been his life. The more Brutha learns about the world outside the citadel, the more the one book makes less sense. He becomes exposed to much of the knowledge of the world - the true facts - the less naive he becomes.
This is a book about religious fundamentalism. It is a book that shows that clearly, Mankind make gods what they are. Gods are originally created to explain something unexplainable. The more we learn the less we need gods. Ultimately, it's the truth of the world that Brutha discovers that makes him a prophet and wise leader of his people. All Om is concerned about is that people believe in him. He's not interested in how people live their lives - that is for the leaders of men to decide. Vorbis is, in a way, like the Brutha at the start of the book. He refuses to accept outside knowledge and uses his ignorance as a club to beat his people into shape - the shape that he has decided it should be. Brutha at the end of the book, lets people decide for themselves what they believe and encourages them to seek out and discover for themselves the knowledge of the world.
So the whole thing about having such a perfect memory is almost like giving a character a super power. It's a literary method to achieve a point. Of course it makes no sense that he can recall things that he can't possibly understand and, of course he probably wouldn't be able to recreate much of what he committed to memory. It's Terry way of showing that knowledge of real things is far better than ignorance and belief in things supernatural.
Tony, you're absolutely right. Brutha started his very existence as a 100% absorbent "sponge" into which an inifnite amoung of knowledge of any kind (dogma, memories, etc.) can be poured. What he lacked, at the beginning, was the ability to think critically. He only learns this when he begins his literal relationship with Om the Tortoise, who gradually helps him perceive the world not as the "fundamental truth" as espoused by Vorbis and the Omnian Church but the "actual truth" of things as they are.
And to the point of whether Brutha could actually "write out" the things he "memorized," keep in mind that his "memory trick" at the Ephebian LIbrary was aided by Om's influence. It was also partly due to Om's influence that the words Brutha memorized but could not understand gradually turned into knowledge inside his head. But like anyone trying to grasp complex subjects, it was very difficult for him to understand everything--at best, he could "learn" parts of scientific principles. One assumes that during the course of his life after he became the Prophet he developed more "learning" skills, or, at the very least, developed writing and drawing skills. Remember that in our own history, many people who became scribes weren't able to read or understand the books they were copying. In many cases, this was intentional, because the custodians of these books (usually monks) didn't want their lowly copyists to be able to understand "heathen" knowlege
And to the point of whether Brutha could actually "write out" the things he "memorized," keep in mind that his "memory trick" at the Ephebian LIbrary was aided by Om's influence. It was also partly due to Om's influence that the words Brutha memorized but could not understand gradually turned into knowledge inside his head. But like anyone trying to grasp complex subjects, it was very difficult for him to understand everything--at best, he could "learn" parts of scientific principles. One assumes that during the course of his life after he became the Prophet he developed more "learning" skills, or, at the very least, developed writing and drawing skills. Remember that in our own history, many people who became scribes weren't able to read or understand the books they were copying. In many cases, this was intentional, because the custodians of these books (usually monks) didn't want their lowly copyists to be able to understand "heathen" knowlege
Yes, I agree that Brutha would have learned more skills as he spent the years copying out the books. I was speculating as to which ones he would have learned first, and what choices he would have made. If the experience of the scrolls makes it possible for him to read and write, then all he has to do is practice. (It's also the story of a young man discovering literacy.)
Having known a man who had eidetic memory, I find it fairly easy to accept Brutha's memory, especially as a Discworld fact. I'm not sure how Om had any influence on the Library demonstration. Brutha had the eidetic memory from birth, long before he ever heard Om speak. In one short scene Brutha rescues Om from Didactylos by explaining that the tortoise was setting up a sting by pretending to fail, and not so incidentally claims the tortoise as his property; Om did speak to Brutha then. But during most if not all of the memorizing scene, Om isn't even present. Simony was off fetching Om from Brutha's room.
Canon narration says that books interact when they are shelved too close together. This is a Discworld fact, unrelated to our reality. While the books in Ephebe are probably not magical, they don't need to be magical to interact. Brutha's experience of having them interact in his mind so quickly is a fast way to show what normally happens more slowly in our reality when we read books and think about them.
While SG can be read as a treatise on fundamentalism, it can also be read as a history of the Enlightenment, when ancient knowledge from the Mediterranean cultures (not just Greece) became available in Europe and sparked huge social changes.
On a metaphorical level, it can also be read as the story of one individual who becomes at least somewhat enlightened in both the eighteenth century sense and a Buddhist sense. Brutha listens. That verb is repeated, over and over. Brutha listened. Brutha heard the voice of his god, argued with his god, even threatened his god, and demanded that his god be worthy of his belief. It is a demonstration of how a human being can shape a god. As I understand it, enlightenment in a Buddhist sense involves becoming aware of your mind and seeing how it works. Brutha's mind begins to watch itself as he walks the desert.
The imagery of light fills the book. Lu Tze's name, which sounds like "lucy", resonates with Latin "luci-" as in "lucifer", the light bringer, the son of the morning. The brightest one. And the one who spoke - hissed - to the innocent in the garden. (His life was probably saved by Lu Tze, who may have put a pile of compost where Om was going to land. Lu Tze moves mountains and brought one to Brutha.) The Citadel is dark, and most of it is underground. Light wells bring in controlled amounts of light; the rhetoric is twisted by Vorbis so that the idea of bringing light in so that nothing was hidden became a horrifying pride in the torture chambers. The harsh light of the desert burns away most illusions. The Citadel is dark, but Ephebe is built of white stone that reflects light and makes the city very bright. One of their strongest defenses uses light itself as a weapon.
Not that Ephebe is perfect. Nothing in this book is perfect except Brutha's memory, and that has some locked-away parts.
We see flaws in Ephebian culture. We can see flaws in the Ephebian science in the scrolls Brutha remembers. The Ephebians, as their culture continues, will no doubt continue their scientific investigations and correct the errors. Eventually, some of the scrolls Brutha copies out will be discredited, particularly the ones that try to explain the observations of natural phenomena (natural philosophy). That doesn't make them useless; it makes them part of the history of thought.
Having known a man who had eidetic memory, I find it fairly easy to accept Brutha's memory, especially as a Discworld fact. I'm not sure how Om had any influence on the Library demonstration. Brutha had the eidetic memory from birth, long before he ever heard Om speak. In one short scene Brutha rescues Om from Didactylos by explaining that the tortoise was setting up a sting by pretending to fail, and not so incidentally claims the tortoise as his property; Om did speak to Brutha then. But during most if not all of the memorizing scene, Om isn't even present. Simony was off fetching Om from Brutha's room.
Canon narration says that books interact when they are shelved too close together. This is a Discworld fact, unrelated to our reality. While the books in Ephebe are probably not magical, they don't need to be magical to interact. Brutha's experience of having them interact in his mind so quickly is a fast way to show what normally happens more slowly in our reality when we read books and think about them.
While SG can be read as a treatise on fundamentalism, it can also be read as a history of the Enlightenment, when ancient knowledge from the Mediterranean cultures (not just Greece) became available in Europe and sparked huge social changes.
On a metaphorical level, it can also be read as the story of one individual who becomes at least somewhat enlightened in both the eighteenth century sense and a Buddhist sense. Brutha listens. That verb is repeated, over and over. Brutha listened. Brutha heard the voice of his god, argued with his god, even threatened his god, and demanded that his god be worthy of his belief. It is a demonstration of how a human being can shape a god. As I understand it, enlightenment in a Buddhist sense involves becoming aware of your mind and seeing how it works. Brutha's mind begins to watch itself as he walks the desert.
The imagery of light fills the book. Lu Tze's name, which sounds like "lucy", resonates with Latin "luci-" as in "lucifer", the light bringer, the son of the morning. The brightest one. And the one who spoke - hissed - to the innocent in the garden. (His life was probably saved by Lu Tze, who may have put a pile of compost where Om was going to land. Lu Tze moves mountains and brought one to Brutha.) The Citadel is dark, and most of it is underground. Light wells bring in controlled amounts of light; the rhetoric is twisted by Vorbis so that the idea of bringing light in so that nothing was hidden became a horrifying pride in the torture chambers. The harsh light of the desert burns away most illusions. The Citadel is dark, but Ephebe is built of white stone that reflects light and makes the city very bright. One of their strongest defenses uses light itself as a weapon.
Not that Ephebe is perfect. Nothing in this book is perfect except Brutha's memory, and that has some locked-away parts.
We see flaws in Ephebian culture. We can see flaws in the Ephebian science in the scrolls Brutha remembers. The Ephebians, as their culture continues, will no doubt continue their scientific investigations and correct the errors. Eventually, some of the scrolls Brutha copies out will be discredited, particularly the ones that try to explain the observations of natural phenomena (natural philosophy). That doesn't make them useless; it makes them part of the history of thought.
Hmm... so in a way, Tamar, Small Gods is partly about the relationship between religion and science - a relationship that some people, I'm sorry to say, see as a conflict; i.e. you can have science or you can have religion. 
The truth, of course, is far more complicated than that, but it reminds me of the start of an essay I read in The Science of Discworld III: Darwin's Watch, where a caller into a radio chat-show in the US Bible Belt questions - if Charles Darwin is so great - why he never received a Nobel Prize.*
It's possible that Terry is showing us that, although neither Omnia nor Ephebe are perfect societies, the philosophers of Ephebe strive for understanding. They seek to open lines of inquiry, and are willing to admit they are wrong. The Quisitors of Omnia, on the other hand, try to close these lines of inquiry. They don't want debate - they want obedience. I believe this is one of Terry's reflections of "Roundworld" as it was, and Tony makes a very good point about Terry's criticism of religious fundamentalism, embodied in the country of Omnia.**
But Terry also shows us the dangers of having blind faith in scientific achievements, during the conversation between Didactylos and Urn - when Urn shows the old man his "moving tortoise":
So what's the answer? Science, or religion? Or both, as embodied by Brutha?
_____________________________
* The answer is simple: Darwin died nearly 20 years before the first Nobel Prize was awarded.
** Alas, religious fundamentalism - embodied most strongly in the shape of ISIS - is far from eradicated on our planet. Perhaps some day?
The truth, of course, is far more complicated than that, but it reminds me of the start of an essay I read in The Science of Discworld III: Darwin's Watch, where a caller into a radio chat-show in the US Bible Belt questions - if Charles Darwin is so great - why he never received a Nobel Prize.*It's possible that Terry is showing us that, although neither Omnia nor Ephebe are perfect societies, the philosophers of Ephebe strive for understanding. They seek to open lines of inquiry, and are willing to admit they are wrong. The Quisitors of Omnia, on the other hand, try to close these lines of inquiry. They don't want debate - they want obedience. I believe this is one of Terry's reflections of "Roundworld" as it was, and Tony makes a very good point about Terry's criticism of religious fundamentalism, embodied in the country of Omnia.**
But Terry also shows us the dangers of having blind faith in scientific achievements, during the conversation between Didactylos and Urn - when Urn shows the old man his "moving tortoise":
So what's the answer? Science, or religion? Or both, as embodied by Brutha?
_____________________________
* The answer is simple: Darwin died nearly 20 years before the first Nobel Prize was awarded.
** Alas, religious fundamentalism - embodied most strongly in the shape of ISIS - is far from eradicated on our planet. Perhaps some day?
A belated Yes! to RathDarkblade, SG is also about the relationship of science and religion.
But really I'm just here to mention that today I am in almost uncontrollable giggles about the resonances. Om, having Fallen from the heavens and landed as a reptile, Fell again (did he fall or was he pushed? neither, he was dropped) - was dropped and landed as a reptile in the Garden, hissed advice at the innocent who could hear him, and after Falling a third time (this time he more or less jumped) has, at the end, invaded the home of the gods, had a War In Heaven, and won!
No doubt he spent a hundred years paying more attention to Omnia and meanwhile Blind Io retook Cori Celesti because Io is in charge in the later books, but that could be alternate pasts, too. Heck, maybe Io and the others took note of how Om got to be so strong he could beat them all at once, and did something for their own followers for a few decades.
I do wonder whether P'tang-P'tang helped Om in the fight. He's a pretty strong little god himself, to get to Cori Celesti with only 51 followers.
But really I'm just here to mention that today I am in almost uncontrollable giggles about the resonances. Om, having Fallen from the heavens and landed as a reptile, Fell again (did he fall or was he pushed? neither, he was dropped) - was dropped and landed as a reptile in the Garden, hissed advice at the innocent who could hear him, and after Falling a third time (this time he more or less jumped) has, at the end, invaded the home of the gods, had a War In Heaven, and won!
No doubt he spent a hundred years paying more attention to Omnia and meanwhile Blind Io retook Cori Celesti because Io is in charge in the later books, but that could be alternate pasts, too. Heck, maybe Io and the others took note of how Om got to be so strong he could beat them all at once, and did something for their own followers for a few decades.
I do wonder whether P'tang-P'tang helped Om in the fight. He's a pretty strong little god himself, to get to Cori Celesti with only 51 followers.
I don't think that Om ever "took over" Cori Celesti and ruled it in the first place. He just bullied his way in to compel the other gods--who were all pretty lethargic and weak-willed anyway--to personally intervene to stop the war between Omnia and its neighbors. It's far more likely that when this was done Om left CC and never went back there. He wasn't that fond of CC in the first place, and when he's reminiscing about this days as a "huge god" he talks about he spent his time soaring through the universe--this was the main reason he lost his believers in the first place. After all, Om was a god of the desert--born to wander in the wilderness. He wasn't the kind of deity that would be happy lounging around all day playing games of chance.
