So ... (Discworld-related question) *drumroll*

[RathDarkblade]

So who, in the Discworld canon, would you classify as a "Complete Monster" -- and why?

Just to be clear: a "Complete Monster" is a character that has no redeeming features and is completely irredeemable. (Needless to say, spoilers galore! Please do not read unless you've read some of the books!)

I'll start ... let's see.

The Duchess from Wyrd Sisters. As the book notes,

Spoiler

when she is stripped of all of mental barriers she uses to justify her atrocities, she is unaffected because she doesn't mind what she's done. She encourages her husband to kill the King, tried to torture an old woman (not that said old woman was ever in danger) for no real reason, tried to kill the King's infant son, and ordered her husband to kill people who don't pay their taxes. She has the attitude and she's committed several horrible deeds. I'd say she fits.

Lady Lilith from Witches Abroad?

Spoiler

No. She does a lot of horrible things, but Granny Weatherwax (who, being Lilith's sister, has a bias, but is generally speaking, a very just person), doesn't consider her beyond redemption.

Jonathan Teatime from Hogfather? The only problem with him is that he is occasionally played for laughs. But

Spoiler

he has the attitude (sociopath and psychopathic man-child) and he did done some horrible things (it's implied that he killed his parents; he kills anyone who outlives their usefulness so callously that even his subordinates - ruthless criminals - are disgusted; and he kills the Hogfather, which does horrible damage to reality, just because he can).

I am not sure about Vorbis (from Small Gods). As horrible as he is,

Spoiler

Brutha considers him redeemable.

Wolfgang (from The Fifth Elephant). He

Spoiler

killed one of his sisters because she wasn't a full werewolf. His own mother (who is a fairly horrible person anyway) is unnerved by his actions. When his other sister tries to stop his plans, he vows to kill everyone who gets close to her. This sister is tough, but is nevertheless reduced to tears when she realizes how far Wolfgang is going to go to get revenge on her. Vimes, who is very lawful, ultimately decides that Wolfgang is so evil that he turns into a borderline vigilante and executes Wolfgang rather than arrest him. Yep, he's a Complete Monster.

Mr. Pin and Mr. Tulip from The Truth.

Spoiler

Not Mr. Tulip, because he eventually shows remorse for his crimes. As for Mr Pin...he's a horrible person and a weasel, but his worst crime is killing Mr. Tulip to save himself, which doesn't really compare to the others (especially Wolfgang or Carcer).

Carcer from Night Watch? He is a

Spoiler

serial killer who becomes a member of the secret police of a corrupt regime. He makes threats against Vimes's pregnant wife. He unnerves everyone he speaks to. He abuses his subordinates. And he attempts to make Vimes kill him instead of arrest him so he can make Vimes give in to his anger. Yep, he's a Monster.

Captain Swing from Night Watch? He is

Spoiler

head of aforementioned secret police. He tortures people so badly that Vimes has to perform a mercy-killing on some of them. He also kills one of his subordinates for no real reason. He's a Monster, but not as bad as Carcer.

Andy Shank from Unseen Academicals is

Spoiler

a bully and a psychopath, but he never kills anyone.

I'd say he's not the complete package yet, and hopefully never will be.

What do you think? I'd be curious to know what you think of Lord Winder, Lord Snapcase, Mr Clete of the Musicians' Guild ... discuss!

 

[Tonyblack]

What's the name of the character from Snuff? (I'm having a brain-fart)

Also The Cunning Man in ISWM? A literal monster.

 

[raisindot]

Ardent from Thud!

Reacher Gilt from Going Postal.

Andy (the right name? The street bully) from Unseen Academicals

As for the ones you mentioned:

Lily Weatherwax was bad, but she was a victim of her own belief in stories. Granny thought she was redeemable, and gave her a chance to change her ways, but Lily chose not to.

Vorbis was completely irrdeemable, and was probably the absolutely most evil character in any DW book, because he rationalized his cruelty and terror as acts of goodness and holiness.

 

[Tonyblack]

Definitely agree with you about Vorbis.

 

[=Tamar]

Disagree about Pin. There were several "incidents" referred to obliquely by Tulip that indicate Pin has killed as well as tormented people many times. He also stole Tulip's potato. Irredeemable.

Winder and Snapcase caused deaths and pain that were detailed as history, in the Watch books. Irredeemable.

Mr. Clete authorized crippling musicians for the sake of money, and hired killers to take out musicians he couldn't destroy otherwise.

Generally, there are irredeemable characters but not irredeemable species.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Is Vorbis irredeemable? I don't know. I agree that he is evil, but he never did evil for its own sake. He is functionally amoral, but believed himself to be very moral. Of course, in the end

Spoiler

Brutha helps him cross the desert.

Why did he do this? Is this a redemption for Vorbis -- or a demonstration of Brutha's innate goodness?

What's the name of the character from Snuff? (I'm having a brain-fart)

Tony, I think you mean

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Mr Stratford? The one hired by Lord Rust's son.

Ardent from Thud!

What does Ardent do in Thud! that is so horrible? Sorry, I can't remember. I do remember that he does equally horrible things in "Raising Steam". (Please feel free to put your answers in the "spoiler" tag to avoid spoiling anyone who hasn't read the book).

Dee in "The Fifth Elephant" is a borderline case, I feel.

Spoiler

She initially seems to be the villain, but she turns out to be only the cat's-paw for Wolfgang. Besides, she never kills or tries to kill anyone. I end up feeling sorry for her, not angry at her.

 

[raisindot]

Sorry, won't put stuff in spoiler quotes. If you're reading a DW novel related topic, you need to expect spoilers.

Vorbis is entirely irredeemable. Brutha walked him across the desert because he mistakenly believed there was something in Vorbis that would be redeemed, and also because as a saint Brutha just couldn't let the (then) catatonic Vorbis on his own. Vorbis's subsequent actions demonstrated that he deserved no mercy whatsoever.

Ardent was aligned with the "deep downer" dwarves and led the efforts to erase the true history of the Koom Valley War. He also set deep downers to try to kill Vimes in his home. Rhys showed mercy to him, and Ardent only betrayed him by trying to usurp him in Raising Steam (and encouraging deep downers to kill "modern thinking" dwarfs.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Raisindot, when I said that Brutha helped Vorbis across the desert, I'm referring to the desert that comes after DEATH. I think you mean the "other" desert (after which Vorbis declared himself to be a saint).

So my question is, why did Brutha (after he died) help Vorbis cross Death's desert? =\ I agree that Vorbis always acted without any regard for anyone else. Perhaps Brutha feels that, after death, even Vorbis can be redeemed?

 

[Mixa]

This is a really interesting thread @RathDarkblade!

As you said there are many cruel characters that actually think they are doing great things. Pratchett created really complex antagonists, and most of the time we end up feeling pity for them. But on the other hand we love characters like Vetinari and Vimes although they are no saints.

But yeah, for me Carcer is definitely a Complete Monster.

Mx

 

[Tonyblack]

So my question is, why did Brutha (after he died) help Vorbis cross Death's desert? =\ I agree that Vorbis always acted without any regard for anyone else. Perhaps Brutha feels that, after death, even Vorbis can be redeemed?

Isn't that the question Death asks Brutha at the end of the book?

"HE WAS A MURDERER, said Death. AND A CREATOR OF MURDERERS. A TORTURER. WITHOUT PASSION. CRUEL. CALLOUS. COMPASSIONLESS.

‘Yes. I know. He’s Vorbis,’ said Brutha. Vorbis changed people. Sometimes he changed them into dead people. But he always changed them. That was his triumph. He sighed.

‘But I’m me,’ he said.

Vorbis stood up, uncertainly, and followed Brutha across the desert."

Small Gods: (Discworld Novel 13) (Discworld series) (pp. 337-338). Transworld. Kindle Edition."

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm. What do you think about Captain Swing (from NW)? The Duchess/Duke from Wyrd Sisters?

Captain Swing, to me, is like Vorbis - a torturer and a creator of torturers. I'd like to see at least one redeeming feature in him, but he's too far gone.

What about the actual torturer character in NW? (We don't know his name - the one that Vimes ties up in the chair). We don't know his motivation. Maybe he's simply cruel. Maybe it's just a day job that pays the bills. Historically speaking, there were plenty of both.

Vimes wanted to release him from the chair, but then Swing interfered. We don't "see" Vimes actually releasing him, which is disturbing. I presume he must have burned (or at least choked) to death.

The Duchess, as I pointed out before, is irredeemable; like Lilith and Swing, the Duchess is certain that she is always right, even when she is very wrong.

The Duke is another matter; he aids and abets his wife in persecuting the witches, but I don't think he's anywhere as "evil" as she is. He comes across as wishing he could have his wife's certainty, but he doesn't. It's definitely a role-reversal of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, but in the end (after the play comes to Lancre), the Duke becomes almost a melodramatic villain. "I shall rattle my chains at them!" etc.

What do you think?

 

[raisindot]

[Spoilers ahead]

Lord Rust in Jingo is irredeemable. Racist, elitist, neglectful of the under-equipped, underfed and underskilled volunteer soldiers he brings to Klatch--he's the epitome of every terrible commanding officer who is more concerned about maintaining the outdated rituals of war rather than keeping his own men from being slaughtered. True, he is more of a parody than an actual villain, but his crimes led to actual unneeded deaths. The Rust of Snuff isn't really a villain--by that time he's just an incompetent old man. It's his unseen son who's the real villain.

William De Word's father is completely irredeemale. Another racist and elitist whose power play to replace Vetinari is grounded in his hatred of the Patrician's successful attempts to make the city more diversified.

Even though he's not a main character, Dragon the Vampire is irredeemable. His masterminding of the plot to remove Vetinari and reinstall a powerless king is motivated solely by his desire to control and maintain the ancient family lineages.

 

[RathDarkblade]

[spoilers ahoy!]

Hmm -- true, raisindot. *nods* I agree that Lord Rust in Jingo is a villain, but I'd say that his crimes are minor compared to those of Prince Cadram. It was Cadram's actions, after all, that started the war. Rust was merely Cadram's cat's-paw.

Also, we know (from Men at Arms) that Lord Rust is a racist, elitist twat.

I also agree with you about Lord de Worde (in The Truth) and Dragon, King of Arms (in Feet of Clay). However, I think disagree that he's not a main character; we see/hear him in action at least three times:

- Talking to Vimes about coats of arms (his introduction)
- Talking to Arthur Carry (and overheard by Colon)
- Talking to Vimes (the conclusion)

... and, I suspect (and so does Vimes) that he planted the MacAbre whiskey in Vimes's desk. After all - smooth wall, nothing to hold on to - only someone who could fly, etc...