SPOILERS The Truth Discussion **Spoilers**

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rockershovel

Lance-Corporal
Feb 8, 2011
142
1,775
#21
Tonyblack said:
Slant is a law whore. :laugh: He'll work for anyone who can pay enough. Vimes is the opposite of that. He'll use the law for anyone regardless of money.
that's essentially my point. But, both believe totally in the law, whilst applying it in diametrically opposed directions.


interesting comment about Mr Tulip's potato-worship sounding Russian. I wouldn't have thought of that but I can see the point.
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,854
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#22
The whole episode (what we know of it) of a young Tulip and the rest of his village hiding in a church and listening out for soldiers reminds me of a clip of a Russian movie I once saw about a group of nazis rounding up Russian villagers accused of hiding partisans, putting them in a church and setting fire to it. One young lad managed to escape, but was made to watch what happened. I can imagine something similar happening to Tulip.

The potato was the staple diet and an overheard remark by a youngster that 'we'll be ok as long as we have potatoes' could explain his philosophy. But all that is speculation. :)
 
Apr 26, 2011
4,005
2,600
42
Bingen
www.flickr.com
#24
The Truth was the first Pratchett I bought as a hardcover. Money well spent, even though I think it is over a year that I last read it.

As most (all?) of the people who already posted, I found the duo Tulip/Pin very enjoying, especially the depth added to them (mostly Tulip) later by the little glimpse we got of tulips background and his firm belief in a root vegetable.

The book achieves to show in a humorous yet precise way all that I dislike about journalism (or rather what passes for journalism, the Inquirer is a good example).
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#25
None of us has talked about William and Sacharissa yet, although they are surely at least part of the main focus of the story. I find William an interesting character--one who grows and develops in the course of the novel. He has struggled (just as Otto does) to throw off his "nature" as it was instilled in him by his father. But, as Otto's picture shows--for most of the book, he has his father looking over his shoulder. That is, he is reacting, I think, in part because he knows his father would disapprove of his being in business. Worse yet--he's associating with all sort of species and treating them (or trying to) as equals or, in some cases, employees.

I think that his growth into a complete individual comes only when he realizes that his father is not perfect, not even all that bright. Lord de Worde sees only what he wants to see--and justifies his actions with "I had the best interests of the city at heart, you know." And William rightly rejects this justification which has used by every privileged class (nobility, powerful "captains of industry" politicians, governments, etc.).

William dramatically tries to buy himself free (like a dwarf), but his actions would have failed but for the arrival of Otto. His father has "henchmen" who take care of the dirty work so his hands are clean., and William would have simply "disappeared." But William's actions have commanded the loyalty of his employees Otto, who has recognized the very real danger William has unknowingly put himself in, rescues him by disposing of his father's henchmen and then completely vanquishes Lord de Worde by upholding William's opinion of him. He merely plants a kiss on the brow, not a bite on the neck.

To some extent, William becomes his father. He is no longer hesitant about using his considerable understanding and knowledge of the working of government and the power of the press. But he has a completely different philosophy of what his responsibilities are--to find and print the truth.

Terry leaves unanswered the question of what is the difference between The Truth and Journalism. It only has to be true til tomorrow for journalism--and that brings William and Sacharissa together. One assumes that they marry (from Going Postal).

It seems to me that Terry has, in this book (and those that follow) gained better control of comic satire, even though he has some holes in his plot structure. For example, Goodmountain and Borrodony want to get married, and they've been working to get enough money to buy each other, so they can return home and start a mine together. But, at the end, the dwarfs, the vampire, the troll and the humans seem to be a continuing part of the Ankh-Morpork Times.
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,136
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#26
Responding to SWreader without quoting.

William does become like his father in many ways. He uses the de Worde arrogance and class superiority in his conversations with Vimes, and he follows the de Worde policy of protecting the family honor, even if doing so lets the guilty go free.

The difference is, he knows that these are character flaws but is resolved to make amends by using his status as editor of the Times to chase down wrongdoing.

And I don't think it's a plot flaw that the dwarfes remain with the Times at the end. The last events of the book only take place within a day or so after the conspiracy is revealed, so it's not likely that the Dwarfs are in that much of a rush to pick up and go. Indeed, it may even be possible that the success of the Times in its power to reveal corruption may have convinced them to hold on for awhile.

The only plot point I find a little bit hard to believe is that you never hear of the Enquirer again in any future book. Just because Dibbler is no longer its chief fabricator doesn't mean that someone else couldn't have taken over in that role--AM is full of liars and blowhards. Even with the conspiracy revealed, the high powers in the city who control the Enquirer's purse strings would still want it to succeed so it could put the Times out of business. That in future books the Times remains the city's foremost paper rather belies the lack of interest the AM reading public was having in it with the far more entertaining Enquirer as the newspaper alternative.
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#27
Granted Raisindot, that one reference to the dwarfs going home (and presumably all of them, not just Goodmountain and Boddony) is the only indication that's ever made. Time frames in Discworld are rather elastic--but I rather suspect that they've changed their plans--perhaps possibly married (Goodmountain and Boddony) in AM-- because The Times shows up with no indication of change of personnel in Going Postal or in Monstrous Regiment.

The point is, it seems to me, not that Terry is particularly interested in whether or not any of the staff of The Times get married. The point of that discussion is twofold. First, it gives William an understanding of a different perception of parent/child relationships, and thus allows him to buy himself free from his father. That idea, I think has more to do with the plot, than with a point Terry wants us to stop and think about.

More significantly, I think that Terry is reminding us that we (like William) are a bit inclined to consider the idea of bride price or dowry somewhat weird. But the dwarf system takes into account the particular nature of dwarf life, and means that they inevitably have long "engagements" as they work to pay each other off. Further, it recognizes the effort and money parents put into raising children, and treats it as an obligation of the child. Now that's not a common idea among most humans, I think. But the child who has, in some sense, paid back his or her parents, is truly a person and no longer a child. And this idea is not crucial to the plot so much as just a point to think about in judging human relationships.
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,854
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#28
Just because we don't hear about the Enquirer in the future doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Indeed, it seems to appeal to a certain type of person who isn't really interested in the 'truth' and find the Enquirer-type stories more interesting. I suspect that there are a whole bunch of newspapers opened in A-M following the success of The Times. We just don't hear about them.

The dwarfs strike me as being the archetypal immigrant - they move to A-M to make their fortune with the intention of one day going back home, but will probably settle down in A-M and bring their families too.

Part of the point of the book is to draw attention to the almost casual bigotry used by people who don't bother to find the truth about people, they just condemn them as 'those people' coming over here and taking our jobs with they weird traditions etc.

I think it's incredibly farsighted of Vetinari that he has an open door policy to immigration. People might not like it, but there's little denying that it's incredible good for the city. It's made the city the powerful place it is. Compare it to the city that Vimes goes back to in Night Watch. I guess it's like the New York of Discworld.
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,854
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#30
Indeed, I'd forgotten about that until dennykay mentioned it. It kind of destroys my theory of an overheard misunderstanding. Which is a shame because it makes a lot more sense and explains why Death hasn't heard of such a belief. o_O
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#31
pandasthumb said:
dennykay said:
Moist von Lipwig was member of the plain potato church, wasn't he?
Yes, that sounds right to me.
I don't think so. Moist's primary discussion of his "religion" is made up to keep Otto from taking a picture of him for the paper, because he's still thinking that he doesn't want to be recognized. On a couple of occasions when he thinks he's on the point of death he commends his soul "to any god who can find it." That's not the plain potato church--that's a "just in case there is a god church."
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,854
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#32
The quote about the Potato religion is in Making Money, Sharlene - not Going Postal. It's page 266 of my hardback:

When he was a child Moist prayed every night before going to bed. His family were very active in the Plain Potato Church, which shunned the excesses of the Ancient and Orthodox Potato Church.
However, I don't necessarily see this as the same belief as Mr Tulip's. There's no mention of the things that Mr Tulip believes in. And Moist is from Uberwald where they are used to zombies, dwarfs, trolls, vampires and werewolves. Pin and Tulip seem to find it all very strange being amongst these races - this suggests that they don't come from Uberwald.

Like I said previously, it seems more likely that Tulip overheard and misunderstood a conversation when he was a child and has based his beliefs on that. We know that as far as Death is concerned, when people die they get what they believe they deserve. So when Tulip really believes that the potato will allow him to be reborn, that's what happens.

This is probably a comment by Terry about some of the strange and unlikely things that people believe in connected to religion.
 

dune

Lance-Constable
May 10, 2011
14
1,650
#35
Tonyblack said:
Just because we don't hear about the Enquirer in the future doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Indeed, it seems to appeal to a certain type of person who isn't really interested in the 'truth' and find the Enquirer-type stories more interesting. I suspect that there are a whole bunch of newspapers opened in A-M following the success of The Times. We just don't hear about them.

The dwarfs strike me as being the archetypal immigrant - they move to A-M to make their fortune with the intention of one day going back home, but will probably settle down in A-M and bring their families too.

Part of the point of the book is to draw attention to the almost casual bigotry used by people who don't bother to find the truth about people, they just condemn them as 'those people' coming over here and taking our jobs with they weird traditions etc.

I think it's incredibly farsighted of Vetinari that he has an open door policy to immigration. People might not like it, but there's little denying that it's incredible good for the city. It's made the city the powerful place it is. Compare it to the city that Vimes goes back to in Night Watch. I guess it's like the New York of Discworld.
We do hear about them, don't we? Moist's death in Going Postal is covered by a couple of different papers if I am not mistaken.
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#37
dune said:
Tonyblack said:
Just because we don't hear about the Enquirer in the future doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Indeed, it seems to appeal to a certain type of person who isn't really interested in the 'truth' and find the Enquirer-type stories more interesting. I suspect that there are a whole bunch of newspapers opened in A-M following the success of The Times. We just don't hear about them.

The dwarfs strike me as being the archetypal immigrant - they move to A-M to make their fortune with the intention of one day going back home, but will probably settle down in A-M and bring their families too.

Part of the point of the book is to draw attention to the almost casual bigotry used by people who don't bother to find the truth about people, they just condemn them as 'those people' coming over here and taking our jobs with they weird traditions etc.

I think it's incredibly farsighted of Vetinari that he has an open door policy to immigration. People might not like it, but there's little denying that it's incredible good for the city. It's made the city the powerful place it is. Compare it to the city that Vimes goes back to in Night Watch. I guess it's like the New York of Discworld.
We do hear about them, don't we? Moist's death in Going Postal is covered by a couple of different papers if I am not mistaken.
The only mention in Going Postal of others paper occurs when the Hangman talks about the press coverage of the hanging. He mentions What Gallows? , the Times, the Pseudopolis Herald, and the Sto Plains Dealer as having reporters there. This, I think is a case of Terry using something for a moment, but not exploring it. Presumably the Times is William's paper, but the others are made up and relate vaguely to Moist's activities. Since Going Postal is after The Truth, there could,of course, be other newspapers, but there's nothing like The Inquirer mentioned (to the best of my recollection).

Moist is interviewed on several occasions by Sacharissa, who has (as he notices) gotten married but retained her professional single name.
Otto shows up taking pictures of the ride to Sto Lat, and of Moist's rescue of Twinkles the cat.

I don't remember any other mention of an Inquirer (or some other paper) in any of the later books. Certainly William shows up seeking interviews in Thud!, and someone has started drawing regular political cartoons--rather like Punch--if the ones in Monstrous Regiment are anything to go by.

It seems odd that the paper disappears, but I think the answer is that it served a particular function in The Truth, most notably that people will buy and read the most outlandish things by preference, even when there is a better paper available. Not sure that William's paper could have survived against that competition, if it continued to be well funded and if they found someone to write their stories--which both Carey and William find is a lot harder than it looks.
 

rockershovel

Lance-Corporal
Feb 8, 2011
142
1,775
#38
there must be a printing industry selling popular material in Ankh-Morpork before 'the Times' - doesn't Nobby Nobbs find a stack of 'Bows and Ammo' under a suspect's bed? Come to that, Cohen the Barbarian sells a booklet 'I Can Make You A Hero' a long way back - Nijel the Destroyer has a copy

However the description suggests woodcuts and hence fairly long printing schedules ( Bows and Ammos is presumably monthly ) .. Sacharissa Cripslock's father appears to cater to this trade.


Regarding timeframes, the whole series seems at times to be rather akin to the Aubrey/Maturin series ( Master and Commander etc ) - quite specific when necessary but vague in between, to accomodate more events than can realistically be dated between fixed dates if the books are read in sequence
 

Siren

Lance-Constable
Apr 27, 2011
45
1,650
Southampton,UK
#40
I still havent read this thread as I'm currently working through The Truth, should be done by later today so I'll be back with opinions later but...
On BBC breakfast news yesterday morning around 8am the female newsreader commented "The public interest and what the public are interested are two different things". In my half asleep state I thought 'Ye gods, she's quoting the book I'm reading, this is insane!'. But I think this must be a famous quote from elsewhere? Anyone know where it first surfaced? Quoting TP or not though,it was definitley a :eek: moment.
:laugh:
 

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