SPOILERS Thief of Time Discussion *Spoilers*

[Tonyblack]

Regarding the Auditors taking on human form. They suddenly find that the very fact of inhabiting a human body and feelings makes them into individuals. Terry is using them to exaggerate the way humans act. Very few humans actually take an axe and start attacking other humans, but if they did they'd probably find that other humans would be more likely to obey them.

The Auditors seem to have inherited a sense of self-preservation along with their humanity and a want to preserve their uniqueness - again this is another very human trait. It's really clever of Terry to use them in this way to show us human foibles that we take for granted.

Humans have a lifetime of being human to learn how to be human. To the Auditors it comes as a shock.

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

LOL Auditors still crack me up. I am reading Reaper Man... "I" "Did you just Say I?????" "NONONO I Did'n... ohshit" Blue/red flare of flame poof. LOL LOL LOL

How can you not love that? It is too much, they are like, like, like, oh Pooh, like Accountants who develop personalities and must be extremely careful in every word they say and every move they make, cuz I'll be watching you... oops slipped into Sting for a moment.

I felt so sorry for Jeremy/Lobsang until they got together.

Yes I think an Abbot story would rock... WannaWannaBikkitNOW!!!! Beats monk with rubber Yak...WhoopsNeedNewNappy..ShoooeyStinkyNappy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh and by the way you are messing with the universe and I must insist BIKKIT that you stop.

 

[mspanners]

Just a thought .... now that Unseen Academicals has hit the shops where will it be in the discussion group list of books?

Will it be added to the end of the list or will there be a redraw of the remaining titles?

 

[poohcarrot]

Sorry about double posting.

Anyways. About the auditors. They are experianceing human-ness for the first time and fit right in. But they never learnt right or wrong or irrationality so the humans (weeel kinda humans) win. But they picked up on stupid rather quick. Stupid verging on idiotic. This was the intro. My grand theory will be revieled soon.

Well, Bikkit, you said people were ignoring you, so though I agree that this is one of Pratchett's best, I'm going to have to "nit-pick" at your post.

The Auditors who incarnate could hardly be said to "fit right in" to humanity. When the first six appear to supervise Myria, they don't understand that the body has to breathe, and make a myriad of mistakes because they haven't the vaguest understanding of even the physical nature of humanity, let alone the psychological complexities of humanity.

And it's not that they are "irrational" but rather that they are disembodied intelligences who are completely rational unattached to the complexities of life and humanity. It's not that they are stupid, so much, as that they have never encountered as part of their nature the complexities which being human requires--emotions, conventions, politeness (to name only a few) are completely new to them.

I agree with you bikkit. I also think the auditors fit right in to humanity. I'd also like you to reveal your theory.

Sorry to nit-pick with you sw reader, but Bikkit isn't talking about the physical nature of humanity. I don't know how an ipod works, but this doesn't make me an auditor.

When a baby is born it (usually) knows and understands nothing. It learns. The auditors are like newly born babies but with intelligence. (I like the way this baby-with-brains theme is also repeated with the Abbot)

As for "emotions, conventions and politeness, etc" the incarnate auditors learn of all these very quickly and experience them all in the book.

So just what exactly on the long list of the psychological complexities of humanity do the auditors not show?. 8)

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

So just what exactly on the long list of the psychological complexities of humanity do the auditors not show?. 8)

the natural ones I guess. You're absolutely right about them being like babies and like the abbot in that they have fantastic recall but....

All babies of whatever species are born with a genetic imprint that predisposes them for the life ahead including socio-behavioural ones. In human babies (Discworld or not) they have large brains that have instinctive physical impulses which they quickly learn to process: sight (more often than not this is not an immediately usable sense in the non-simian mammalian newborns), hearing, taste, smell, touch and other useful neural and basic motor skills: but a virtually blank personal memory bank which is filled gradually as they grow in strength and mobility. They also have a gift for vocalising which they use effectively and manipulatively from the moment they 'detach' from their host mother. What else would explain how quickly such an ugly, wrinkly, smelly and squally little scrap can forge a bond with it's parents and blood kin and have people running to attend to all it's many grotty little physical needs?

With the auditors all they have is the knowledge and intelligence and not the sensory input that all humans have from their birth - why else can they not handle chocolate? They're creatures of the mind not the flesh and yes, they do pick up all the pschopathic skills very quickly because they're not used to being individuals and separate from the whole of their sterile intellectual community. When they're separated they just can't cope with the others wanting to do different things and undermining their own decisions and inclinations so they get hugely selfish and antagonistic not to mention arrogant and murderous, just because their now singleton will is frustrated and completely compromised because they can no longer work collectively.

But then we're pretty good at that kind of stuff too... in fact we're much better at it aren't we, because we can be organised and work together with the really bad stuff as well as factoring in the petty little individual idiosyncracies like xenophobia and making the world a better place - for me, me ME??!!! :twisted:

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

POOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MY WONDERFUL MANSY-WANSY!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have MISSED you. Thank you for being YOU.

The auditors are very silly and just as prone as we are to human foibles and try very, very hard not to give in, but, like Myria said, a piece of burnt toast almost killed her with the sensation. She is the only one who had even 1/2 of an inkling of the idea of human-ness. I mean really, she tried to paint. How cool is that? It had to be very hard to "appear" human and not "appear to accept" human-ness. Her character will have a part in my soul-ish thingy that is inside of all of us. Whether we like it or not...
Susan is good, she has none of the powers when time stops and must use her brain, thankfully it is a good brain.

Johnny Depp would make a wonderful Jeremy/Lobsang, but I think I said that already.

 

[poohcarrot]

...so they get hugely selfish and antagonistic not to mention arrogant and murderous,

...as that appears to be a perfect character description of John Bolton, they obviously fit perfectly into humanity as bikkit originally stated.

 

[Lady Vetinari]

Jan's statement - so they get hugely selfish and antagonistic not to mention arrogant and murderous,

Much like the worlds Politicians then?

 

[poohcarrot]

I have MISSED you.

Thank you for being YOU.

You obviously need more practice on the shooting range.

I don't understand that second bit.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

...so they get hugely selfish and antagonistic not to mention arrogant and murderous,

...as that appears to be a perfect character description of John Bolton, they obviously fit perfectly into humanity as bikkit originally stated.

Did I say I'd missed you?

Who's John Bolton? - I had to look him up on Wiki and I'm still no wiser as there's about a half dozen of them (such a common name! ) Auditor-wise I'm guessing it's the US Ambassador under Bush, but I could be mistaken since I can't be bothered to learn these clots names, just know what stupid sh*t they've got us into?

I agree with Bikkit as well, just that you asked what psychological complexities they didn't show - the ones I mentioned support what Bikkit's saying as the lack of the mitigating aspect of human sensation isn't there to prevent them doing excellent impressions of most war-mongers and/or serial killers :twisted:

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

I have MISSED you.

Thank you for being YOU.

You obviously need more practice on the shooting range.

I don't understand that second bit.

Too True, but I try to stay away from firearms, altogether too handy.

and well, Just think of it as Stockholm Syndrome or something vaguely similar. ... hmm I think you remind me of my father... AAAAACK!!!

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

I think I need to log off after that... wow never thought I would say that to ANYONE. However, if you hear me say you remind me of my Mother..... be very, very careful. :twisted:

 

[kakaze]

I think I need to log off after that... wow never thought I would say that to ANYONE. However, if you hear me say you remind me of my Mother..... be very, very careful. :twisted:

As long as he doesn't remind you of your ex!

 

[Lady Vetinari]

I finished ToT last night ... something interesting happened at the end which got me thinking...

Death brings out her timer and a shadow of Unity appeared and she says "I thought I was dead." Death's reply is: THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING - Does this mean we are going to see Unity in again?

 

[poohcarrot]

I finished ToT last night ... something interesting happened at the end which got me thinking...

Death brings out her timer and a shadow of Unity appeared and she says "I thought I was dead." Death's reply is: THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING - Does this mean we are going to see Unity in again?

No. She's dead.

On a completely different topic, one which nobody has ever mentioned either here on on CA.

Am I right in assuming it's the same storm and lightning bolt in ToT as in Nightwatch, which sends Vimes and Carcer back in time?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

I finished ToT last night ... something interesting happened at the end which got me thinking...

Death brings out her timer and a shadow of Unity appeared and she says "I thought I was dead." Death's reply is: THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING - Does this mean we are going to see Unity in again?

No. She's dead.

On a completely different topic, one which nobody has ever mentioned either here [or] on CA.

Am I right in assuming it's the same storm and lightning bolt in ToT as in Nightwatch, which sends Vimes and Carcer back in time?

Yep. Unity's definitely dead and, as Death says, about to start her afterlife which, for her, should be a doddle presuming she still has vestiges of her auditor life so she's able to handle disincarnation very easily... Or maybe ghosting isn't for her and she'll have a go at reincarnation?

Bringing us to another interesting aspect, since we don't see any other auditor getting met by Death (and surely, as they are his ultimate enemies, he would have been very busy with all of them before Unity arrived in the desert). Does this mean that the other auditors, not having been incarnate for too long, and not having learned anything about living, therefore haven't developed the very thing (supposedly) that they may have actually understood about human physicality - the soul or spirit?

In turn, does that mean that the auditors are in fact souls in their natural state and so cannot be taken by death as they're still the same entities merely clothed in hastily assembled flesh? Unity, having tried very hard to immerse herself into being human (and not having any other auditor around to infuriate or fight with her) has had the time to 'get' what's being human means. That's done in a limited way since she's picking up on all the sensate positives and so has investigated the aspects that appeal to her most, becoming a kind of analytical aesthete (instead of an analytical psychopath) and is impressed and wanting to know more so she does acquire a human-like soul that Death can take...

Interesting point about the storm with Vimes and Carcer Pooh, but didn't that happen at night? It would be a great twist if it was the same storm though

 

[poohcarrot]

I'm 99% sure it didn't happen at night, plus Nightwatch is all about time travel, plus Nightwatch has Lu-Tse.

 

[Tonyblack]

I certainly agree that it's the same storm in Thief of Time and Nightwatch, although whether Terry had the idea for Nightwatch at the time of writing ToT or not we may never know.

As to Unity - she'd gained enough humanity to deserve a soul and I think I'd agree with that. It was also rather a nice way to end her part in the story as I think, as she admits, that for her to stay alive would have driven her crazy. Humanity takes a lifetime to get used to.

 

[kakaze]

I would agree with that. I'd thought that the lightning in Night Watch hit the University, but aparently it didn't:

“Mister Vimes?”
“What?” Vimes snapped. Smoke was rising from the weathercock's bearings.
“I got three knives, Mister Vimes,” said Carcer, bringing his arm up.
The lightning struck.
Windows blew out and iron gutters melted. Roofs lifted into the air and settled again. Buildings shook.
But this storm had been blowing in from far across the plains, pushing the natural background magic ahead of it. It dumped it now, all in one go.
They said afterwards that the bolt of lightning hit a clock-maker's shop in the Street of Cunning Artificers, stopping all the clocks at that instant. But that was nothing. In Baker Street a couple who had never met before became electrically attracted to one another and were forced to get married after two days for the sake of public decency. In the Assassins' Guild, the chief armourer became hugely, and since he was in the armoury at the time, tragically attractive to metal. Eggs fried in their baskets, apples roasted on the greengrocers' shelves. Candles lit themselves. Cartwheels exploded. And the ornate tin bath of the Archchancellor of Unseen University was lifted neatly off the floor, sizzled across his study and then flew off the balcony and on to the lawn in the octangle several storeys below, without spilling more than a cupful of suds.

 

[poohcarrot]

I also loved Susan.

But then again, I like arrogant, self-confident, sarcastic, smug, take-no-nonsense women, don't I Jan and Dotsie? :twisted:

(skull ring, remember?)