SPOILERS Vetinari's Mental Health *Spoilers JD & RS*

[Slantaholic]

Is anyone else worried about Vetinari?

He's murdered his way through the latest books. In Judgement Day, he chucked people out of a window, killing them, yet making Angua smile. In Raising Steam, he openly kills people in the fifth 'chapter'/section. Later, he must be getting over the assassination attempt badly, because he's started to drink!

By the time he's met Moist, (UK hardback page 47) he's started to do that strange long staring at the wall (with insane body language), then Drumknott breaks out his crossword, which I'm fairly sure drove him mad in the first place, if not the job.

I think Pratchett is either planning to kill him off shortly, or dump him into the Lord Vetinari ward.

Later, I don't know what possessed him to go on holiday with Vimes, Cheery and Detritus, Fred and Nobby. In previous books, such as Jingo, he looked like he wanted a holiday. This time, he's burning people alive in a furnace! That's not a holiday.

He clubbed people to death with his infamous shovel, also used to cook Vimes a fry-up! (UK hardback page 370)

I think 'Stoker' is a reference to Bram Stoker, but I can't be sure. I only caught about three references in the whole book, which I don't like very much; it was too old, and reeked of sexism and classism, especially when the Queen abdicated because she couldn't work out maternity leave.

I'm surprised Vimes couldn't arrest Vetinari - for murder, which he's started to commit. The only one with a sane reaction - at first - is Mr Lipwig before the goblins taught him to kill. I preferred him as a thief, immoral though that is.

 

[=Tamar]

Is anyone else worried about Vetinari?
He's murdered his way through the latest books. In Judgement Day, he chucked people out of a window, killing them, yet making Angua smile. In Raising Steam, he openly kills people in the fifth 'chapter'/section. Later, he must be getting over the assassination attempt badly, because he's started to drink!

We're rarely certain that it is truly Vetinari. We are certain, at one point, that it isn't. Ever since the end of The Truth, we can't be entirely sure that it is truly Vetinari in any scene.

By the time he's met Moist, (UK hardback page 47) he's started to do that strange long staring at the wall (with insane body language), then Drumknott breaks out his crossword, which I'm fairly sure drove him mad in the first place, if not the job.

That isn't Vetinari. Drumknott is keeping the situation in deep cover, even when there is officially nobody around to overhear.

Later, I don't know what possessed him to go on holiday with Vimes, Cheery and Detritus, Fred and Nobby. In previous books, such as Jingo, he looked like he wanted a holiday. This time, he's burning people alive in a furnace! That's not a holiday.

It's as much a holiday as Vimes's holiday in Snuff, i.e., a busman's holiday. I think Vetinari wanted to be there to be sure of what was really happening rather than having to depend on his spy network. Sometimes you just have to be there. Besides, Iron Girder exerts a magical attraction on all males, and he couldn't very well be the engineer. Being the stoker is next best.

He clubbed people to death with his infamous shovel, also used to cook Vimes a fry-up! (UK hardback page 370)

Well, he is a trained Assassin. The shovel was presumably burned clean. It is traditional for anyone working with any kind of heated metal to use it for cooking, especially if doing so is unauthorized.

I think 'Stoker' is a reference to Bram Stoker, but I can't be sure.

Not likely. Stoker is a standard railway job. It's the man who stokes the fires. There is no logical link to vampire stories. It's more likely that Bram Stoker got his family name from someone who had the job.

... it was too old, and reeked of sexism and classism, especially when the Queen abdicated because she couldn't work out maternity leave.

Since when? There was a discussion of the past, but it was definitely about the past. Considering that it is set in the equivalent of the early 19th century, it's a marvel of modernity.

I'm surprised Vimes couldn't arrest Vetinari - for murder, which he's started to commit.

Vetinari as tyrant has the right to have anyone killed within his jurisdiction. Outside his jurisdiction, Vimes has no authority to arrest him unless in hot pursuit of him for a crime that Vimes could prosecute for - which he can't, because Vetinari has the right... Remember, this is not set in the 21st century UK.

The only one with a sane reaction - at first - is Mr Lipwig before the goblins taught him to kill. I preferred him as a thief, immoral though that is.

Lipwig is a pragmatist and self-defense was involved.

 

[pip]

Which Queen abdicated :

 

[Tonyblack]

The Dwarf one I think. :think:

 

[pip]

I didn't think she had . I'm confused.

 

[Tonyblack]

Well as Slantaholic said in another thread:

I found it awful, and couldn't finish it.

And the abdication referred to would be (if it existed) at the end of the book, that might explain the confusion.

Edit - she doesn't abdicate (I just checked). She merely changes her name.

 

[pip]

Well as Slantaholic said in another thread:

I found it awful, and couldn't finish it.

And the abdication referred to would be (if it existed) at the end of the book, that might explain the confusion.

Edit - she doesn't abdicate (I just checked). She merely changes her name.

That's what I thought . It was all a cheeky play on words when she said she'd stop being King.
So I'm confused by slantaholic reading to that point then giving up with a handful of pages left. Seems silly.

 

[Slantaholic]

pip wrote:
And the abdication referred to would be (if it existed) at the end of the book, that might explain the confusion.
Edit - she doesn't abdicate (I just checked). She merely changes her name.

It was half-way through the book, I recall, in front of all the dwarfs, after the 'same-sex' kiss before we found out she's a woman again. I've forgotten which other dwarf came out as female/trans in T5E - I keep getting confused with Ardent.

I gave up deep-reading RS in the first few pages, and scanned the rest page after page. How can everyone read it? The style is so old. I think it reads so Victorian - I have no idea what book Mr Pratchett read last, but it dribbles all over the place. The only concession was that he skipped all the year-after-year construction work, and it flew faster after that.

Slantaholic wrote:I think 'Stoker' is a reference to Bram Stoker, but I can't be sure.
Tamar wrote:
Not likely. Stoker is a standard railway job. It's the man who stokes the fires. There is no logical link to vampire stories. It's more likely that Bram Stoker got his family name from someone who had the job.

But Vetinari's having sex with a vampire - Lady Margolotta to be precise, unless he prefers Drumknott.
Tamar, were you laughing at me?

 

[Tonyblack]

I don't understand this notion that Vetnari is having sex Lady Margolotta. Where is that ever suggested? Vetinari has a close personal friendship with a member of the opposite sex, who in many ways is his equal intellectually. Why does that mean they are sleeping together? :think:

 

[Tonyblack]

Oh yes - Slantaholic - which Discworld book is called "Judgement Day"?

 

[Slantaholic]

Tony Black wrote:
I don't understand this notion that Vetnari is having sex Lady Margolotta.

I've been reading too much fanfiction. Lots of it's about Havelock Vetinari; he's shipped A LOT with Margolotta, Vimes or Drumknott.

Tony Black wrote:
Oh yes - Slantaholic - which Discworld book is called "Judgement Day"?

One that I thought would be my favourite, and would get me over World of Poo. Poor Mr Slant didn't feature as much as I hoped he'd would, but it's better than a one-off liner in Snuff or Raising Steam.
Now, Mr Black, I think you're laughing at me!

 

[Tonyblack]

I'm not laughing at you - I really do not know any DW book called Judgement Day.

 

[Tonyblack]

Oh wait - I just Googled it. You mean Science of Discworld - Judgement Day? I only read the one of those books and didn't care for it. I didn't realise it was that one you meant - sorry.

 

[Slantaholic]

Tony Black wrote:
I really do not know any DW book called Judgement Day.

Please, you must be having me on. It's a Science of the Discworld sub-title. Number four, to be precise.

Tony Black wrote:
I only read the one of those books and didn't care for it.

I learnt from the science sections, but I agree slightly. Reading for the story and skipping the opinion pieces disrupts the reading flow, I found.
It's also the same book that Vetinari opens kills people, but off-page. Angua keeps smiling about it, to me.

 

[Tonyblack]

As stated, I have no interest in the Science books and was only vaguely aware that a fourth book had come out. I certainly did not know the subtitle.

Why shouldn't Vetinari kill people? He's a graduate of the Guild of Assassins, and they do that sort of thing legally. And he's a self confessed tyrant who is above the law and can do pretty much what he wants to. Usually he chooses to keep things running within whatever laws exist, or are considered suitable, but as a tyrant, he can change those on a whim. Have people executed or freed and pardoned.

Terry has merely fleshed out the character in the last few books. Actually, starting with Men At Arms when Vetinari's little intellectual game of pushing people to the limit goes wrong. He is not faultless and, in the way Granny likes to have Nanny around to stop her getting out of control, Vetinari has Vimes.

 

[Slantaholic]

Tony Black wrote:
Have people executed or freed and pardoned.

Exactly! He's always been like a shadowy political figure up till now. He's started to kill openly on page, especially in Raising Steam. In Night Watch, he doesn't kill someone with a sword and only openly dispatches Carcer's company. By the start of Raising Steam, Drumknott is smiling rather disturbingly and opening the door to let him like a cat to murder people! In Night Watch, he only stopped to not spray up against things like a cat. He's also a dog person.

Meanwhile, in RS he's not in Ankh-Morpork, and therefore has no power to change local laws (although I wished he had, for the better). He's in Uberwald, and should be setting a better example to Lady Margolotta, who rescued Vimes once and appears more moral, especially with her pardoning Vampires Reform political movement - the Black Ribboners.

 

[pip]

I used to find vetinari a bit one dimensional. Pretty much the tyrant behind the desk in black so I for one am delighted he's been fleshed out a bit and some of his actions revealed. It makes him a lot more interesting to be honest. He'd been the same character in every book except Jingo.

 

[simmonds91]

As was mentioned earlier: Anhk Morpork is not 21st century uk. The rulers of the city before Vetinary were stark raving mad, murderous psycopaths in power. you can complain he's killing in the open all you want but that is nowhere near as bad as what the rulers before him got away with though when i say "got away with" I should really say "where allowed to do" because they were the ruler.
In raising steam I think his "murder" was self defence don't you think? the dwarfs that where attacking the train were certainly out to kill.
As a tyrant he carries the city with him I reckon, he IS the city, he is his own jurisdiction and I rather doubt just because lady margalotta made the black ribboners she isn't as cunning and murderous.
Anhk Morpork is basically victorian london, maybe earlier, do you honestly think Vetinari's behaviour as a ruler in our world would be all that strange a century or two ago?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Roundworld's still got more than it's fair share of corrupt rulers and legislature/police depts around and certainly did in the more recent past, even for 'civilised' nations (anyone been watching Ripper Street and all the corruption going on in Victorian London? Ever thought why ex-British colonies have such a bad rep? )

Churchill, despite his hero status got up to a lot of dubious things in WW2 (and not just within the UK) whilst he was in power so why not Vetinari. Ankh-Morpork with the clacks alone dominates the main continent of Discworld now so why wouldn't he mess with 'foreign' policy?

 

[Slantaholic]

Churchill, despite his hero status got up to a lot of dubious things in WW2 (and not just within the UK) whilst he was in power

Mm-mm. I don't watch some documentaries, so I wouldn't know. (-:

Anyway, I read about this solicitor/law firm in early France C17th and the crimes were mostly on par with Ankh-Morpork 'suicide'. Vetinari's actions (but I think Vetinari didn't join the upper classes when he became a Lord after Patrician, I think he's still labour-conservative and middle-to-elite class) are similar to the emerging middle classes; hiring bodyguards, hiring spies, relaxing morals on spies and talking about having them openly, having relations with a Prostitute class/guild but having no visible mistress/partner, etc. He shows up as newly elite-changed-to-upper class sometimes with his behaviour and increasing insanity problem, which started just after G!G!. He's pure introvert during the aforementioned book, but after Carrot gets to him he goes mad and behaves friendly, but extrovert. Somewhat friendlier. He's still (metaphorically) big and powerful and waving, lots of waving.

Perhaps I'm getting too worried about the man. (-: