Vimes and Vetinari - friends, enemies or what?

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Vimes and Vetinari - Friends, enemies or what?

  • Friends

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Enemies

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Something else - what?

    Votes: 1 100.0%

  • Total voters
    1

Trish

Corporal
Apr 23, 2009
518
1,925
Wintersville, Ohio
#21
Jan Van Quirm said:
Its a balance of aggravated respect and mutual goals which means they're possibly more like colleagues more than friends.

I think there are moral conflicts in there.

As a team they work anyway and that pleases them both

Yes to colleagues with aggravated respect and mutual goals.

No to working as a team. Vetinari cares about AM more than what he may have to do to protect it and its interests, while Vimes struggles with that kind of ugly pragmatism and usually finds a way around it, still managing to serve AM.

Vetinari (and I like his character, very much) is not bothered with moral conflicts. Vimes is, everyday. The former sees the whole picture all the time, while the latter pays attention only to the small piece of the human jigsaw in front of him.
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,852
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#22
Trish said:
Jan Van Quirm said:
Its a balance of aggravated respect and mutual goals which means they're possibly more like colleagues more than friends.

I think there are moral conflicts in there.

As a team they work anyway and that pleases them both

Yes to colleagues with aggravated respect and mutual goals.

No to working as a team. Vetinari cares about AM more than what he may have to do to protect it and its interests, while Vimes struggles with that kind of ugly pragmatism and usually finds a way around it, still managing to serve AM.

Vetinari (and I like his character, very much) is not bothered with moral conflicts. Vimes is, everyday. The former sees the whole picture all the time, while the latter pays attention only to the small piece of the human jigsaw in front of him.
Sort of like the Brain and the Heart. :)
 

Jan Van Quirm

Sergeant-at-Arms
Nov 7, 2008
8,524
2,800
Dunheved, Kernow
www.janhawke.me.uk
#23
and Vetinari has no 'heart' of course - but the brain and heart need each other to work (and by heart needing the brain I mean the hypothalamus)so it's conscious v unconsious and passionate v dispassionate teamwork...

or even good cop bad cop? :laugh: But which is which? :twisted:
 

Omnia

Constable
May 28, 2009
52
2,150
Essex
#24
Vetinari and Vimes? Friends? No! And Tony (OP) ~ I'm reading my companion when I get home tonight, I can't believe it says that :laugh:

I agree with what Jan wrote on the first page, and with what msspanners says about Vetinari creating Vimes. Vetinari shaped Vimes character ~ think of G! G!, Men at Arms and Feet of Clay. in Feet of Clay, Vetinari knew the answer but he made Vimes work at it and come to the same conclusions himself.

As Vimes has grown into his respected role of later books he's earnt Vetinari's respect because to a large extent he has become a major political player within the city and beyond (due to the way he wields his authority and soemtimes bends it a little to get his man.)

I don't think there is room for like or actual friendship there though.

And I've just finished re-reading Going Postal ~ Vetinari has a similar manipulative relationship with Moist, but I also think there is perhaps a bit of genuine admiration there for Moists ability to manipulate people.
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#25
Omnia-- not only does the 2004 Gollancraz edition of the Discworld Companion (which is the copy I have) make that remarkable and totally incorrect statement, but in the process of trying to cross check some things, I've found quite a number of other fascinating items (look at what appears to be the Watch Badge -- p.424 in the middle of the Vetinari discussion--quite different from the "former" badge described in the City Watch entry: p. 438). Since the Companion is theoretically by Terry Pratchett and Stephen Briggs, but actually by Briggs, and since Briggs makes up all sorts of history never mentioned by Pratchett, it seems possible that we can disregard this statement completely.

As to the relationship between Vimes & Vetinari--there is no single answer to this question because the relationship changes over time. When the reader first meets Vetinari & Vimes in GG, apparently Vetinari is vaguely aware of the 3 member (growing to 4 with the addition of Carrot) Night Watch. But in the course of the novel, the relationship changes--because Vimes & Vetinari become much more closely associated (sharing a prison cell) and because Vimes saves Vetinari's life (for the first time).

Actually, as we learn in Night Watch, young Havelock knew the Duke when he was transformed temporarily into Sgt. at Arms John Keel--and recognized then the intelligence and command ability that person possess, though Vetinari had no idea who Vimes really was. In fact, he suggests to his Aunt that she may want Keel removed as possible threat to the change of Patricians she is fomenting. Vetinari does not put the John Keel he knew 30 years before together with the Duke he now knows well until the end of Nightwatch. And by that time the realtionship between these two Guardians of the City has changed and grown from that seen in Guards! Guards!

Initially, Vetinari seems to have a kind of grudging respect for Vimes (at least by the end of the book). But Vetinari opperates on the theory that Vimes is (like everyone and everything else in the City)is nothing but a pawn or a part of a vast machine which he,as Patrician, must keep in balance. That requires him to take perverse actions, such as forbidding Vimes to investigate the murders (by the gun or whoever has it at the time) in MAA, which Vetinari does to make sure that Vimes does in fact investigate. Apparently their relationship at this point is one marked by distrust and lack of real knowledge.

By the time we reach Thud!, the most recent purely Watch book, the relationship is essentially one of mutual respect with the knowledge that each is devoted to the city, and each knows pretty much how to manipulate the other. As Jan and several others have said--they are colleagues.

I would go further, though, and say that while Vimes and Vetnari's relationship at that point is not friendship, it is probably as close to a friendship with another man as either of them is capable of.
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,852
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#26
I have to correct you there Sharlene. :) The illustration on page 424 is actually Sir Samuel Vimes' Coat-of-Arms - although I don't know what it's doing on that particular page under the heading of Vetinari. The other badge in the 'Watch' section seems to be the ornate shield as produced by King Veltrick I for the then Royal City Watch. Veltrick III on the other hand commissioned a much plainer copper badge:
It was he who commissioned the striking of the first Watch badge, a plain disc or shield of copper (representing the shield which watchmen had originally carried). This disc was stamped with AMCW (for 'Ankh-Morpork City Watch') and the officer's number. These badges were in common use bu the City Night Watch until recently, although only a handful have survived the intervening years. Commander Vimes certainly clings to his, which is now the only known example outside the Patrician's personal museum in the Palace.
 

Omnia

Constable
May 28, 2009
52
2,150
Essex
#29
Yes, I re-read The New Discworld Companion (2003) and the rather bold statement regarding Vimes and Vetinari's relationship :laugh:

I don't think they've ever really been enemies but there's no true pal-friendship there. Colleagues is a better way than friends to describe their relationship
 

elgohim

New Member
Oct 20, 2009
3
2,150
#30
As swreader points out, their relationship has changed with time. It is evident that Vimes by now (which is when?) knows very well what the Patrician is doing, how he tries to manipulate him and what are the real meanings behind some orders.

Note then how often (especially in the end of an episode) Vimes reports to Vetinari some very diluted version of what has happened, keeping an extreme straight face, just to keep his space of action as wide as possible - and note also that Vetinare lets him do that, well aware of the realities!

Whatever the humble beginnings, now their relationship cannot be charaterized as anything but mutual respect. As men of the world they even set up and enjoy their little skirmishes, knowing that they have very few means to actually convey that respect, other than this kind of roleplaying.
 
#32
I think that throughout the course of time they have become friends - as far as both men can be called friends. They definitely respect each other and work well together and I'd hardly call them enemies. Also Vetinari does have a friend - Lady Margoletta - he taught her everything he knows (well implied!) and she told Vimes to give Vetinari 'her fondest regard!' you don't say that unless you are really and truly friends ... So I do think he does allow a certain closeness but only with people HE respects. Also I think Vetinari would not do a thing to Carrot (remember EVERYONE likes him!) I think Angua would slaughter the Patrician if he did!

So there is mutual respect and they've been through too much together ... and don't forget - Vetinari allows Sybil to use his first name - and appears to like her too.
 
Oct 10, 2009
1,196
2,600
italy-genova
#33
What makes one against the other is their point of view, because Vetinari has to make decisions for the city, not for the single persons of the city. Vimes is a man of the city and he cares about people, he hates aristocrates, kings, regents, every people with power. He wants to hate them. He doesn't allow himself to like them, because that would put him on the other side of the barricade. But even if he doesn't want to admit it, he has come to respect Vetinari because now he knows how difficult it is to run the city.. I don't remember which books, but he himself thought 'and Vetinari feels like this all the time..'
They are not enemies, but they cannot be exactly friends. They are two sides of a single coin, both have to exist to reach the right balance..
 

Andy M

New Member
Nov 21, 2009
7
1,650
#34
I think that both of them recognise that they need the other to do the things that they can't.

Vetinari is the calm, steady master manipulator who eases people into asking him for what he wants them to have. He can not afford to have a temper or to act on impulse and so he needs Vimes to shake things up a bit sometimes so that he can settle them back down in the way that HE wants.

Vimes of course is aware of the rage within him, his dark side as it were and he recognises the need for him to have to answer to a higher “Authority” to keep this in check. I think he would like to answer to the Law itself but of course the Law, unlike Vetinari, isn't going to sack him if he steps over the line!!!
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,135
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#37
Andy M said:
I think that both of them recognise that they need the other to do the things that they can't.

Vetinari is the calm, steady master manipulator who eases people into asking him for what he wants them to have. He can not afford to have a temper or to act on impulse and so he needs Vimes to shake things up a bit sometimes so that he can settle them back down in the way that HE wants.

Vimes of course is aware of the rage within him, his dark side as it were and he recognises the need for him to have to answer to a higher “Authority” to keep this in check. I think he would like to answer to the Law itself but of course the Law, unlike Vetinari, isn't going to sack him if he steps over the line!!!
Welcome, Andy, and good observations. Vimes and Vetinari (interesting how both their names begin with "V") are almost a yin-yang type of arrangement.

The thing about Vimes, however, is that he is there when Vetinari is not--for example, during "The Word" when Vimes had to arrest Vetinari on suspicion of murder, or in "Jingo," when Vetinari was deposed as patrician, although, technically, Vimes was removed from his being commander of the watch as well. Vimes does, in the end, recognize the Law as his ultimate master, much as he needs Vetinari's political cover.

Jeff in Boston
 

theoldlibrarian

Lance-Corporal
Dec 30, 2009
304
1,775
Dublin, Ireland
#39
Remember: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. I dont think they are enemies but certainly there is a rivalry of sorts. They dance a dangerous tango together.
Thats not to say Sam telephones Havelock a few times a week to drop down to the Pub:)
 

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