SPOILERS Witches Abroad Discussion Group

[mspanners]

The trouble is how do you define a mirror..... effectively any reflective surface could be a mirror, the surface of a pond, reflection in a pair of spectacles or the glass in a window.

I am suprised that Terry did not make more of this in the book, Granny caused the mirror in the casino to shatter but could She still be spied on from other reflective surfaces?

Granny and Lilith were reflections of each other or flip sides of the same coin, I think, in the same way that in some of the Star Trek shows identical people from the mirror universe that were either evil or good copies of their doubles. Yin and yang, good and evil......but both part of the whole...... although both thought the other one was the evil one.......

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

I am suprised that Terry did not make more of this in the book, Granny caused the mirror in the casino to shatter but could She still be spied on from other reflective surfaces?

Yes, any shiny/reflective surface, i.e. ice, water, shiny pots or pans worked too.

 

[poohbcarrot]

"poohbcarrot..... not sure that Magrat lost at cards, think it was Nanny who was taken to the cleaners by the card sharps!" - mspanners

Granny caused the mirror in the casino to shatter

Not sure it was a casino, think it was just a bar

 

[mspanners]

Could be poohbcarrot, if so then I stand corrected sir!

I know I should not jump to conclusions but I always imagined the Boat as like one of the floating casino paddle Boats that you used to see in Black and White Cowboy movies from the 50-60ies.

And Granny as an aging Southern Bell !

 

[kakaze]

In my opinion, if a bar supplies decks of cards to its customers, then it's a casino.

I'd agree with mspanners. Genua seems to be set in a New Orleans type environment and the Mississippi has a long history of gambling boats, though the actual "floating casinos" we have today have only been around for about 25 years.

During the early 1800s gambling in the lower Mississippi Valley became a legitimate and organized enterprise. The Mississippi River and connected waterways were major avenues of trade for farmers and merchants and the river boats carried passengers who had lots of cash. The south tended to have a more open attitude towards gaming, reflecting the Spanish, French, and early Virginian traditions.7 New Orleans became the capital for gambling.

[snip]

In 1835, a vigilante group lynched five cardsharps in Mississippi. Professional gamblers moved from the town into the riverboats. Lynching proved to be a successful policy option for reducing the presence of professional gamblers. In contrast to the river boat casinos of today, the old-time river boats were not floating casinos. Gambling occurred informally among the passengers.

http://www.library.ca.gov/crb/97/03/Chapt2.html

As for the reflective serfaces, Terry does mention that Lilith used non-mirror reflective serfaces to search for the wand:

In fact it was dawn in Genua. Lilith sat in her tower, using a mirror, sending her own image out to scan the world. She was searching.
Wherever there was a sparkle on a wave crest, wherever there was a sheet of ice, wherever there was a mirror or a reflection then Lilith knew she could see out. You didn't need a magic mirror. Any mirror would do, if you knew how to use it. And Lilith, crackling with the power of a million images, knew that very well.

Here's a question for you:

Do you think that the quality of the reflective serface affects the image that the witch sees? I mean, if you look in a mirror you get a clear reflection, but if you see yourself in a shop window or pair of glasses it's usually blurry and transparent. Wouldn't the same hold true for someone who was scrying?

 

[mspanners]

kakaze well done! Never recalled that part but then again there are lots of things that I tend to forget like the Wife's Birthday card and our anniversary !

I imagine that yes it would make a difference, a dirty/steamy mirror would be safe from Lilith... so no problem with a Voyeur spying on you in the bathroom if it is steamed over... Nanny Ogg has a Voyeuristic nature to Her soul, I would not be surprised that She has not dabbled in a little mirror magic !

Beware that mirror next time you are trying on a new garment ! You never know who is there...... :twisted:

 

[poohbcarrot]

...the old-time river boats were not floating casinos. Gambling occurred informally among the passengers.

 

[swreader]

It is certainly true that Lilith can use any reflective surface. When the trio have just gone over the waterfall, Lilith thinks that though the ice around the river wasn't that good, it had been good enough. She thinks about what she sees--and largely discounts Magrat & Nanny--but notes that "... there was her. After all this time."

Though Lillith appreciates the power of three (of course there have to be three of them), she totally misunderstands her sister. She thinks

Esme Weatherwax had never understood stories. She'd never understood how real reflections were. If she had, she'd probably have been ruling the world by now.

But Granny understands the mirror, and the use of two mirrors--and so she shatters just one--and breaks the balance, trapping Lillith in the mirror realm, though she is able to leave because she knows how to recognize herself.

 

[Tonyblack]

Regarding mirrors and reflections - did you all notice that the 'Cinderella' story was running in reverse for a while?

The dress was turned to rags, the coachmen were turned to creatures and the coach was turned into a pumpkin.

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

Yup, and poor Magrat had a teensy piece tucked in her pocketses.

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

sssshhh my precious

 

[mspanners]

Terry has a very imaginative and sometime twisty turny mind ! 8)

Most of His books are truly original even when He borrows from others !

He is one clever Man.... 8)

Who else would run a fairy tale backwards......

 

[Tonyblack]

What did we all think of Magrat in this book?

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

She is desparately trying to come into her own in this story. She is peeved at the other two for coming along, even tho it was Desiderata's true desire.

She is trying to find herself, through martial arts, jewelry, and being as darn good a witch as she can. It comes across to her patients in frightening ways. She tries to teach those who are just wanting a cure, not a lesson. She works very hard and resents the others as not actually taking witching seriously.

It is always hard to be the third in the group. In other books she asks Agnes/Perdita how she likes always being the one to get the tea, start the fire or whether her scones are disregarded too.

I adored her righteous indignation at Nanny's gambling away everything including her broom. Her innocent choice to keep a small scrap of the lovely dress is very telling of her personality.

 

[Tonyblack]

One week to go before the Guards! Guards! discussion on Monday 6th July.

 

[Tonyblack]

She is desparately trying to come into her own in this story. She is peeved at the other two for coming along, even tho it was Desiderata's true desire.

She is trying to find herself, through martial arts, jewelry, and being as darn good a witch as she can. It comes across to her patients in frightening ways. She tries to teach those who are just wanting a cure, not a lesson. She works very hard and resents the others as not actually taking witching seriously.

It is always hard to be the third in the group. In other books she asks Agnes/Perdita how she likes always being the one to get the tea, start the fire or whether her scones are disregarded too.

I adored her righteous indignation at Nanny's gambling away everything including her broom. Her innocent choice to keep a small scrap of the lovely dress is very telling of her personality.

Some good points there Tina. I like Magrat a lot and despite what Granny says, I think she's a strong witch. Maybe Granny does it on purpose to make her stronger. It takes a lot of guts to stand up to Granny and Magrat does just that. The fact that she doesn't wear a witch's hat or black against Granny's obvious disapproval is an indication of her strength.

Did anyone notice that she actually calls Nanny Ogg by her first name for probably the one and only time?

 

[Om(nomnom)]

I just read through this thread and I'd like to add that there also is big mediterranean and european influence in Genua. (At least concerning the architecture, according to my memory. Which would be in Line with that "Disneyland feeling."
In fact Genua is the German name for Genova, so the city was named Gennua in the German translation instead.

 

[Cool Middle Name]

This book was fantastic, my favourite Discworld book.
I loved the scene in Not-Spain where Granny gave the bull the Horsemans Word, and Nanny found this hilarious, and Magrat just up and grabbed the rosary from the prize Bull (That was pure gold.)

Don't forget Granny playing CMO

 

[deldaisy]

Rereading this book at the moment. Near the end. Loving it. Purposefully read Lords and Ladies BEFORE this book (didn't do that the first time but did this time because of another thread on the forum that asked COULD you read L&L before this one) but thats a moot point as I didn't the first time... though it HAS been years since I read both books and its almost like a first reading.

Love that this brings so many personal core values of all the three witches out in the open .... shows just how far Granny will bend her personal rules moreso than in other books.... but then .... thats a bit what it IS like when you travel with family or friends huh? They do things you never thought they would at home.

Yeah the references to fairy tales and "Disney" (as opposed to the Grimm fairytales) are cheesey..... but it is the observations of the witches I am enjoying more than anything.

 

[raisindot]

Just finished re-reading (well "re-listening" anyway). This is definitely one of those books that gets better on a re-reading. I remember thinking it particularly strange, even for the witches series, the first time I read it (after reading all the others), but now it definitely seem to fit right into the series. Much like "Feet of Clay" does for the Guards series, this one takes the more comical and plot-driven elements of a previous novel and expands upon them to establish the future directions for the witches, particularly Granny Weatherwax.

If there is anything in the book that doesn't work, I'd say it's the Greebo. It's the equivalent of the laborious Nobby-Colon exchanges in the Watch books--B plot material that's supposed to be funny and break up the main narrative a bit but end up dragging the page down.

It also seems to be a 'transitional' book away from the more one-time plot-and-laugh driven narratives of past book. Here, PTerry is far more concerned with character development than he was in most previous books. And he pays more attention to setting; the Genua he creates here is the most 'realistic' setting so far in a DW book, and the themes that he weaves into the story are perhaps the most complex he has developed to this point. The growth in his literary powers we see here will comes into full bloom with his next book, Small Gods.