SPOILERS Wyrd Sisters Discussion *Spoilers*

[theoldlibrarian]

Perhaps no time travel was done at all but the entire Disk grew 15 years older while one kingdom didn't. Still that raises further questions.

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

It's a question that I've asked myself as well. Of course it means that everyone in Lancre at the time is 15 years younger than they should be, so presumably, when Granny meets Ridcully in Lords and Ladies, she's 15 years younger than him relative to their meeting as youngsters.

Maybe you should add that to the thread about inconsistencies.

Maybe Ridcully was just being diplomatic and not mentioning it - I mean would you go up to Granny and comment on her age, even to say she looked younger than you expected?

But yes there are all sorts of logical/logistical problems that Terry carefully avoids mentioning, like why people working in Ankh Morpork had suddenly sent home 15 years wages at once?

 

[Tonyblack]

Can I ask you all if you thought that it was necessary to know Shakespeare's plays to enjoy the book?

The danger of using allusion is that you'll completely go over the heads of your readers. Did you feel that at all?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

It's not really that important to know WS I think - I read somewhere that most English-speakers don't need to know Shakespeare because he's at the heart of the language - the number of phrases and motif's that we quote unconsciously, just in hamlet's soliloquy that Batty? quoted in another thread yesterday brought that home most effectively...

The 2 plays that Terry deliberately references for the Witches books are Macbeth and Midsummer's Night Dream which are the only 2 plays of his I've ever been made to study and I hated Macbeth and thought MSD was just plain weird even though it had pure fantasy in there - but L&L is still my fave Witch book and as I've said it took me a while to accept WS because I didn't take to the satirisation because I knew the play

Terry's stamp balances the Bard's so no I don't think the allusions matter as such - just the way Terry translates them so you then interpret them in context to Discworld... :twisted:

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

Can I ask you all if you thought that it was necessary to know Shakespeare's plays to enjoy the book?

The danger of using allusion is that you'll completely go over the heads of your readers. Did you feel that at all?

Really difficult one to answer Tony because I can't imagine not knowing Macbeth. I think if you didn't know the storyline it would be a bit difficult to follow why Terry turns bits upside down.

Plus without "Out, out damded spot" the ongoing thing with the Duke's hand would just be weird - though I found it disturbing rather than funny on this rereading, taking a grater to your own hand is so wrong

You certainly get a lot more fun if you know the play, but then unlike Jan I think Macbeth is great - some wonderful use of language

 

[theoldlibrarian]

Id say it would it would be pretty weird to read if you didnt know Shakespeare. Although Ive read plenty of satire in the past and thought it funny, not even knowing what its referencing.

 

[raisindot]

Can I ask you all if you thought that it was necessary to know Shakespeare's plays to enjoy the book?

The danger of using allusion is that you'll completely go over the heads of your readers. Did you feel that at all?

Isn't that a question that really applies to nearly all the DW books (at least most of the early ones, which were crammed to the gills with such allusions and references?) "Soul Music" isn't nearly as good unless you've got knowledge of early rock and roll. "Moving Pictures" doesn't work that well without some knowledge of the early film industry. "Maskerade" reads better with knowledge of musicals and operas. That doesn't mean that WS can't be "enjoyed," but that it's a much more literary experience if you know the references.

WS in particular almost sort of requires knowledge at least of some of the plot (if not necessarily the actual lines) from Macbeth and Midsummer Night's Dream to get the most out of it. It may BE a parody (as has been discussion) but it does (verb) parody whole chunks of these plays' plots.

I think that may be part of the reason why some of the adult DW books are not always that popular among younger people (well, at least in the U.S.), or adults who don't have a deep knowledge of both U.S. and English culture, literature and history.

J-I-B

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

WS in particular almost sort of requires knowledge at least of some of the plot (if not necessarily the actual lines) from Macbeth and Midsummer Night's Dream to get the most out of it. It may BE a parody (as has been discussion) but it does (verb) parody whole chunks of these plays' plots.

Which bits are references to Midsummer Night's Dream then? - when someone mentioned it earlier I thought they were on about Lords and Ladies but I'm obviously being dense as usual

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

I mentioned MND and I did mean Lord and Ladies

Not too sure how MND specifically relates to WS except for the 'play within a play' thingie which seems to be a recycled motif as it's also in Hamlet of course... Like I was saying, Shakespearean themes are simply part of the scenery in the language so people 'know' him without knowing it's him - and so no prior knowledge needed as a good story is a good story is a good story :twisted:

 

[theoldlibrarian]

Who is your favorite character in WS and why?
Mine is Greebo, just for the laughs.

 

[Tonyblack]

Who is your favorite character in WS and why?
Mine is Greebo, just for the laughs.

Actually, I'm rather fond of Magrat in this one. I've always thought that it must take an awful lot of courage to be the 'New Age' type of witch that she is living so close to Granny Weatherwax.

I'm not sure if everyone noticed that the playwright is called Hwel - if you say that with a Welsh accent it sounds a lot like Will.

I also suspect that one of Terry's worst puns is in this book.

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

I think my favourite character in the book is Granny Weatherwax, difficult as she is.

What does everyone else think about the relationships between the witches in this book? On rereading it I was surprised at how "nice" Granny is to Magrat. The quarrel between Granny and Nanny over how they were as girls doesn't seem to fit with how well they work together and their relationship later.


Tony - which pun are you thinking of?

 

[Zephyr]

Oh, oh - don't say it, Tony, it's on the tip of my brain, I know this! It's very short and easily missed but once you see it, it screams out....

*whangs head on desk to remember*

Edited to add 20 minutes later: Dang! I can't remember, but I know this! I'm going to have to read it all over again....aaaaauuuggghh....

 

[theoldlibrarian]

Tony - which pun are you thinking of?

Hwel said in a Welsh accent sounds like Will or William Shakespeare. I didnt notice that until my second reading and I expect many didnt notice at all.

 

[Tonyblack]

That's not the pun, but it does concern Hwel.

 

[theoldlibrarian]

You're talking about the big one?

 

[Tonyblack]

You're talking about the big one?

Well maybe I'm wrong, but Shakespeare is considered a literary giant - Hwel, on the other hand, in a typically Pratchett way, is a literary dwarf.

 

[Tonyblack]

What does everyone else think about the relationships between the witches in this book? On rereading it I was surprised at how "nice" Granny is to Magrat. The quarrel between Granny and Nanny over how they were as girls doesn't seem to fit with how well they work together and their relationship later.

The witches, in this book, are interesting. Nanny seems to have arrived on Discworld fully formed and, to me, she doesn't seem to change much throughout the series. I wonder if Terry based on anyone in particular.

Granny is still developing, I think. You're right DJ - she does seem a little nicer - more tolerant and maybe not quite as clever as she is in the later books.

Magrat's character is due to change anyway. A lot happens to her that is going to be character changing. Meeting Verence, getting married, having a child and gaining more and more confidence. If anything, I think I like Magrat more in this one than Witches Abroad, where she seems much more of a 'wet hen'.

As a trio, it's again interesting as it's really a duo that is grudgingly allowing Magrat very limited access. Granny and Nanny, as we see in later books, are very different people, but they compliment each other, with Nanny being a bit like Dr Watson to Granny's Sherlock Holmes.

Magrat is sort of the new witch on the block. She is geographically a Lancre witch and, as the book says, their territories border each other, so have to give Magrat a certain amount of respect. But they don't exactly welcome her.

The other two keep secrets from her, such as the true relationship between Tomjon and Verence, which they seem aware of, but let Marat discover for herself.

 

[kakaze]

I'm not sure if everyone noticed that the playwright is called Hwel - if you say that with a Welsh accent it sounds a lot like Will.

I was just going to ask if there was some reference to Shakespear in Hwel that I was missing because I'm not British. It seemed like a pretty obvious parody, but always seemed to be building up to a punchline that never came.

I think that Hwel's surname should have been "Axebrandisher" or "Spearchucker" or something.

 

[Tonyblack]

I never thought of that before, but Shakespeare does sound a bit like a dwarf name.