SPOILERS Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*

[robdavies1775]

Ah yes, I've just re-read that passage bearing what you said in mind and I think you're right.

Oh my God Vetinari is even cooler than I already thought he was!

Thank you.

 

[raisindot]

Ah yes, I've just re-read that passage bearing what you said in mind and I think you're right.

Oh my God Vetinari is even cooler than I already thought he was!

Thank you.

I think Vetinari is at his best in the two Moist books. He's really an active character, rather than the "enabler masking as opponent" role he plays in most of the Watch books and The Truth.

Unfortunately, his character begins to change in very bad ways from this point forward...

 

[Mixa]

Making money has been the latest destination during my first Discworld re-reading journey and yes! I’ve enjoy it a lot more than the first time, specially having fresh in mind Going Postal.

Great characters (Yeah, Vetinari rocks!), amazing unexpected turns (I was like during all the ending part), LOL scenes: Igor and his creations, the trial and Mr. Fusspot (that was tremendous XD), striking criticisms to banks, economy, human beings and to other novels (the giant squid of the UU was clearly a wink to HP, wasn’t it?).

I have to say I love reading all your opinions, although for me it’s always very difficult to find downsides on Pratchett’s books and characters… I may have different preferences but I always see them fine twined and take my hat off to them!

raisindot… What do you mean with:

Unfortunately, his character [Vetinari] begins to change in very bad ways from this point forward...

First you criticize Carrot and now Vetinari?? I warn you…

My patience has got a limit!

Mx

 

[raisindot]

raisindot… What do you mean with:

Unfortunately, his character [Vetinari] begins to change in very bad ways from this point forward...

First you criticize Carrot and now Vetinari?? I warn you…

My patience has got a limit!

Mx

Sorry, Mixa. Your lovely, positive, and upbeat Catalonian outlook on life prevents you from the free expression of negativity. It's a very healthy thing that you give you a long and contented life, but not one that lends itself well to literary criticism. Vetinari does indeed begin to change here. Never in previous books does he refer to himself as a "tyrant" or so blatantly define his role. The greatness of his character has always rested in his ability to imply the danger and ruthless power he embodies without specifically stating it. A raised eyebrow is generally all he needs to strike fear into even the most powerful citizens. But in Making Money he goes on long-winded discussions of his role as tyrant. What was subtle become obvious. It's the embryonic element of Pterry's new narrative style, which comes to cyrysalis table fruition first in Unseen Academicals and then full-born adulthood in Snuff and Raising Steam. The symptoms of this narrative decline are the replacement of quick dialogue with long-winded speeches and monologues where characters (or the people they're interacting with) are constantly redefining themselves in the most clumsy ways, Subtlety is replaced with crude declarations.

 

[Mixa]

Sorry, Mixa. Your lovely, positive, and upbeat Catalonian outlook on life prevents you from the free expression of negativity.

Thanks for the compliment, raisindot!

Well, I completely agree with you that Vetinari along with lots of characters and Discworld in general experience through the books a changing transformation. But I personally don’t find it decadent at all. Rather the opposite.

More and more Pratchett incorporates in his latest books bigger and harsher criticisms about a larger variety of issues. If he continued to use the same amount of subtlety to transmit them to us, his books would be the never ending story!

Moreover, I love when Pratchett makes use of assertiveness talking –as we say- “clar i català” (clear and catalan = plainly), because sometimes a crude declaration is worth a thousand subtleties.

I believe Sir Terry got fed up of political correctness and decided to take action empowering his message, even though that meant sacrificing flourishes in his writing style.

And a reflection of that change of mind is Vetinari. At the beginning of his mandate he had a public image to cultivate but now that everyone knows what he is capable of, has replaced subtleness for cheek.

It’s like the revelation Moist experiences during the trial when he sees Mr. Fusspot…

In a world where that just happened, Moist thought. Nothing matters.”

Oh, and about myself as a literary critic… I may never be a professional one, but when I sometimes write a review about a book I didn’t like… Its writer trembles. :twisted:

Mx

 

[JamesW]

Mixa wrote:
Oh, and about myself as a literary critic… I may never be a professional one, but when I sometimes write a review about a book I didn’t like… Its writer trembles.

Remind me never to get on your bad side Mixa

 

[DaveC]

Yikes!!!

I'm not much of a critic myself, I'm also too optimistic...

 

[raisindot]

I believe Sir Terry got fed up of political correctness and decided to take action empowering his message, even though that meant sacrificing flourishes in his writing style.

That's a very interesting statement, because I see Pterry moving much more TOWARD the direction of political correctness in recent books. In the earliest books there were plenty of "speciest" jokes about trolls, dwarves and other non-human species (including Nobby Nobs). Gradually, he began to "flesh out" some of these races (particularly the dwarves).

But with Snuff and, most blatantly in Raising Steam, he's taken political correctness to the extreme....[the rest of this message has been cut out by the OP because it contained spoilers about books that weren't Making Money.] :doh:

 

[Mixa]

Remind me never to get on your bad side Mixa

Don’t worry guys, I don’t bite… much.

I see what you mean, raisindot, but you’ve gone in another direction. I said he refused political correctness when expressing his opinions because if he already barely didn’t mince his words, now he’s totally shameless.

But referring to races and cultures, I believe Pratchett is trying to show the bright side of life and give Discworld a good ending -or as we say “un final rodó” (a round ending) - not only reflecting our society but showing us an example to follow.

Mx

 

[raisindot]

Remind me never to get on your bad side Mixa

Don’t worry guys, I don’t bite… much.

I see what you mean, raisindot, but you’ve gone in another direction. I said he refused political correctness when expressing his opinions because if he already barely didn’t mince his words, now he’s totally shameless.

But referring to races and cultures, I believe Pratchett is trying to show the bright side of life and give Discworld a good ending -or as we say “un final rodó” (a round ending) - not only reflecting our society but showing us an example to follow.

Mx

Oh, I agree with you on both fronts. But in the past, Pterry was far more willing to "express opinions" free of "PC-sensitivity" (remember all the references to dwarfs as "lawn ornaments"?). In recent books, you see nothing of these kind of 'speciest jokes' or if you do, they're treated as "bad things to say." I also agree that it does look like he's trying to give Discworld a "good ending," but he's doing it in such a blatant, artificial way that it ventures into the literary sin nearly all of his books have avoided in the past--polyannism.

 

[Mixa]

Yes, I totally understand your position raisindot, but I don’t think Pratchett will turn a blind eye to negative aspects... I mean, assassins, thieves, corrupts, gangsters, psychopaths, bastards, crooks and all this “crème de la crème” among others will continue existing… Mainly, because a great majority of principal characters are part of it, don’t you think?

Mx

 

[raisindot]

Yes, I totally understand your position raisindot, but I don’t think Pratchett will turn a blind eye to negative aspects... I mean, assassins, thieves, corrupts, gangsters, psychopaths, bastards, crooks and all this “crème de la crème” among others will continue existing… Mainly, because a great majority of principal characters are part of it, don’t you think?

Mx

[Deleting this entire message because I only now remembered that this is the Making Money discussion, not the Raising Steam discussion. SORRY!!!!!!!]

 

[Aquamarine]

It's been a while since I've touched this one, but I thought it was good. Reading Going Postal first certainly does dampen the suspense a bit, since the plotline is very similar. On the other hand, there were plenty of good inclusions, like Mr Bent, Herbert, Cosmo Lavish (and Heretofore), and Dr Hix.

I don't know if it's a great book, though. I keep forgetting it whenever listing Discworld books.

 

[Mixa]

Raisindot, unfortunately I still haven’t been able to read Raising Steam (as I’m waiting for the Spanish translation), but as soon as I’ll do I’ll give my opinion. Meanwhile… I’ll be watching you…

Aquamarine, I suppose our tastes towards Discworld books continuously change in every stage of our lives, but I’m glad you enjoyed it after all, welcome to the forum! :dance:

Mx

 

[raisindot]

Raisindot, unfortunately I still haven’t been able to read Raising Steam (as I’m waiting for the Spanish translation), but as soon as I’ll do I’ll give my opinion. Meanwhile… I’ll be watching you…

Aquamarine, I suppose our tastes towards Discworld books continuously change in every stage of our lives, but I’m glad you enjoyed it after all, welcome to the forum! :dance:

Mx

Ohhhhhhh, CRAP!!!!!!! I totally forgot that this is the Making Money discussion, and here I go posting giveaway spoilers for Raising Steam! I so apologize profusely to you, Mixa, and anyone else who read my message, which I have now deleted.

 

[Mixa]

Raisindot, unfortunately I still haven’t been able to read Raising Steam (as I’m waiting for the Spanish translation), but as soon as I’ll do I’ll give my opinion. Meanwhile… I’ll be watching you…

Aquamarine, I suppose our tastes towards Discworld books continuously change in every stage of our lives, but I’m glad you enjoyed it after all, welcome to the forum! :dance:

Mx

Ohhhhhhh, CRAP!!!!!!! I totally forgot that this is the Making Money discussion, and here I go posting giveaway spoilers for Raising Steam! I so apologize profusely to you, Mixa, and anyone else who read my message, which I have now deleted.

Don’t worry, raisindot, you’re totally forgiven.

Mx

 

[raisindot]

Don’t worry, raisindot, you’re totally forgiven.

Mx

Awww, Mixa. If all Catalonians are as sweet as you, independence should be handed to you all in one big internationally recognized Christmas package.

 

[Mixa]

That really touched me to the core. :bow-yellow: Thank you very, very much, raisindot.

Mx

 

[RathDarkblade]

Why do people seem to hate "Making Money" so much? I like it.

Moist's adventures in the world of banking are hilarious, and despite his outrageous assertions, he ends up doing exactly as he promises. Cosmo Lavish is suitably threatening without being overwhelming. Pucci Lavish is brilliant as the comic relief. As for Mr Fusspot and his adventures in old Mr Lavish's closet... the less said, the better!

I enjoyed Hubert and Igor, too.

Apparently Vetinari isn't allowed to have his little moment in the sun? I know that normally Vetinari is an enabler rather than an active participant, but remember, he's discussed his role as a tyrant before - in Guards! Guards!, when he talks to Vimes about the nature of tyranny.

It seems to me that Vetinari exists for the twin purpose of being a tyrant and keeping on being a tyrant. In UU, we see Vetinari in an unusual situation (i.e. at a party, outside his office), but he steals the scene yet again.

Vetinari is a curious figure in this book. When he snaps at Moist after Moist comes to him for explanation following Mrs Lavish's death, he seems unusually angry and direct - but this is not unexpected, since Moist has just refrained from accusing Vetinari of having a hand in Mrs Lavish's death. Much later in the book, Vetinari "wins" a small victory when he is handed Mr Fusspot to replace Wuffles. A much more major victory, of course, is that the Royal Bank of Ankh-Morpork has entered the Century of the Anchovy.

Adorabelle's scenes are fun, and ultimately contribute to the denouement in an unexpected way.

If there is a weakness in this book, I think that the plot (to replace Vetinari with Cosmo) is probably the least probable of all the "let's replace Vetinari" plots. Vetinari never seems to be in danger of Cosmo actually getting anywhere - or perhaps I've seen this plot many times, so perhaps Cosmo appears more pathetic than competent. Or perhaps that's just the effect of the stygium.

Much more frightening (or credibly so) at the time of reading is the threat that Cribbins could unmask Moist at the trial - and then Moist unmasks himself - and Mr Bent re-appears, with Hilarious Results(TM). Actually (and for non-British readers here), Mr Bent is a clear reference to John Major (the British PM after Maggie Thatcher): at the time of his accession to the Premiership, the joke was that he ran away from the circus to become an accountant (because Major's father was a circus acrobat). Mr Bent is the same.

Comments?

 

[=Tamar]

I also like Making Money. As usual, I have a Genuine Crackpot Literary Theory. I think one reason people dislike it is that they mistake Cosmo for the villain, when he's really just a red herring. The real conflict is Moist versus Vetinari. And Moist wins. Up to now, Vetinari has had a hold over him in two ways: as Tyrant, he can order Moist killed at any time. As the one who knows Moist's history, he could threaten Moist with telling everyone about how he ruined the banks. But Moist gets rid of that issue by doing it himself, and making people like him in spite of it. He could still be ordered executed, but it's likely that Ankh-Morpork would have a bit of an uprising over it, and Moist is much too useful to be arbitrarily disposed of without a really important and current reason. Vetinari's best efforts have reformed Moist to some extent, and Adora Belle did the rest, but at this point all Vetinari can do to undermine Moist's popular appeal is try to make him ridiculous, and Moist tops that by taking a pie for Vetinari. Think of it: Vetinari manipulates humans; Moist has successfully manipulated a goddess.