SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
Hmm - actually, that's all true - but ...
* Vetinari is never really imprisoned in G!G! - he can always leave his cell.
* Vetinari is always in control in Jingo, even when he gets arrested for "giving Leshp away".
* I can't remember the details in "The Truth", but I wouldn't be surprised if this was a ruse of Vetinari's.
* It's revealed at the end of FOC that Vetinari knew all along about the poisoning, but just like to see Vimes dash about and annoy people.
As for the shooting ... all right. I don't think Vetinari was expecting that (in MAA!)
Another thing that Vetinari didn't expect was to be turned into a lizard (in Sourcery).
* Vetinari is never really imprisoned in G!G! - he can always leave his cell.
* Vetinari is always in control in Jingo, even when he gets arrested for "giving Leshp away".
* I can't remember the details in "The Truth", but I wouldn't be surprised if this was a ruse of Vetinari's.
* It's revealed at the end of FOC that Vetinari knew all along about the poisoning, but just like to see Vimes dash about and annoy people.
As for the shooting ... all right. I don't think Vetinari was expecting that (in MAA!)
Another thing that Vetinari didn't expect was to be turned into a lizard (in Sourcery).
I didn't say he was imprisoned in G!G!, I said he was deposed
The Truth wasn't a ruse by Vetinari, he was arrested for trying to murder Drumknott, which was a plot by the Richie Riches to get rid of him. As for Jingo, I would argue that he regained control, because his theory about the island turned out to be correct. Just because we as observers always knew he would end up back in office, it doesn't change the fact that Rust was ready to give him a push and take full advantage of the situation.
The Truth wasn't a ruse by Vetinari, he was arrested for trying to murder Drumknott, which was a plot by the Richie Riches to get rid of him. As for Jingo, I would argue that he regained control, because his theory about the island turned out to be correct. Just because we as observers always knew he would end up back in office, it doesn't change the fact that Rust was ready to give him a push and take full advantage of the situation.
Well, as for "The Truth" ... did Vetinari try to murder Drumknott? I can't remember TT too clearly, but it really doesn't sound like Vetinari. (Especially the follow-up that Vimes recounts: "He said, 'I killed him, I killed him, I'm sorry'..." And then he shimmied down a drainpipe, to where there was a horse loaded with AM $70,000...)
As Vimes says, this whole thing doesn't sound like real life. If anything, it sounds like a rubbish plot from a second-rate movie.
I can't remember TT too clearly, but it really doesn't sound like Vetinari. (Especially the follow-up that Vimes recounts: "He said, 'I killed him, I killed him, I'm sorry'..." And then he shimmied down a drainpipe, to where there was a horse loaded with AM $70,000...) As Vimes says, this whole thing doesn't sound like real life. If anything, it sounds like a rubbish plot from a second-rate movie.
Last edited:
Rath, without re-reading the book or giving away spoilers, if you think about Vetinari's personality and methods, the answers to your questions should be abundantly clear.
Likes:
RathDarkblade
I can't remember TT too clearly, but it really doesn't sound like Vetinari. (Especially the follow-up that Vimes recounts: "He said, 'I killed him, I killed him, I'm sorry'..." And then he shimmied down a drainpipe, to where there was a horse loaded with AM $70,000...)
But it was a plot to depose him, using a doppelganger.
Likes:
RathDarkblade
Explaining a little further...
Lord de Worde's plan was to depose Vetinari, which he did by hiring Pin & Tulip to use Charlie (Vetinari's doppelganger) to dismiss the guard and for them to set up a scene in the Palace which made it seem that Vetinari had run away with the $70000 in cash - coins, mind you - while they abducted the real Vetinari. As it was, Drumknott came in, saw both Charlie and Vetinari and did a double take, while Mr Pin stabbed him. Vetinari was knocked unconscious, presumably by Tulip, and the criminals scarpered because their plan had become unhinged. Vetinari, still "unconscious", was kept in the Watch cells, and Drumknott also at the Watch House, being healed by Igor, while rumours flew around about Vetinari having killed Drumknott. Which is where William de Worde comes in and questions Vimes about it and finds out about the "I've killed him, I'm sorry" quote - which the maids heard "Vetinari" say (but it was really Charlie). Whilst Vetinari is under arrest - and conveniently still unconscious - Lord de Worde encourages the Guild Leaders (via Slant) to elect a new Patrician, one who can easily be manipulated and controlled by him and his fellow aristocratic cronies.
Of course it all starts to unravel due to William's investigation, and Mr Pin being driven insane by dark light shadows, and of course, the key eyewitness (or possibly nosewitness) to the crime - Wuffles.
Of course it all starts to unravel due to William's investigation, and Mr Pin being driven insane by dark light shadows, and of course, the key eyewitness (or possibly nosewitness) to the crime - Wuffles.
Likes:
Tonyblack
Getting back to Snuff, but talking still about Vetinari - it is quite clear that the whole trip to the Shires, by the Vimes family was contrived by Vetinari. He knew that something sinister was going on (the contraband tobacco products) and he arranged to have his "terrier" on the scene to sniff out the crime. Bearing in mind that Vetinari doesn't have any read jurisdiction in that part of the Disc, even though the nefarious actions there are having an affect on the city of A-M. Vimes on the other hand, does have some power in the area, being a major landowner.
How much Vetinari knew about the slavery is another question. The goblins are considered no more than animals - "vermin" - so the question is - do they have rights as a sapient species?
How much Vetinari knew about the slavery is another question. The goblins are considered no more than animals - "vermin" - so the question is - do they have rights as a sapient species?
The goblins certainly have rights by the end of Snuff! They are recruited into the clacks business and make themselves experts on how it works. In Raising Steam, their genius with engineering and thin, questing fingers, make them naturals for work on the burgeoning railway.
Just to go off on a tangent again (sorry) - the goblins have parallels in Roundworld, too. For instance:
1. The goblin practice of preserving their snot, toenails, fingernails etc. - because they were part of the body - is paralleled in various religions (though, obviously, not to that extent). Some Jews (only some) consider that if a person loses, say, an arm, then that arm should be buried as close to the person as possible. If that person isn't already dead, then the arm should be buried close to the family plot.
Many Christians believe in the same thing too, especially those who believe that, at the end of time, they will be resurrected.
2. The goblin Unggue pots are also not unprecedented. Goblins are, after all, a type of sprite. In medieval times, the belief in sprites and elves was common, and there were many stories about sprites holding feasts in the woods and inviting humans or sharing their treasures; the legend of Tam Lin is just one such story.
The Unggue pots, of course, are very fine and rare, and therefore brigands and bandits have tried to steal them for many years. Well, there are some medieval tales that claim that sprites had invited a human to their feast and gave him wine to drink from their goblets. But the human, wise to their tricks, spilled the wine and rode away, holding the goblet high. The sprites gave chase, but the human on his horse was too fast for them. He came to a village and showed them his rare treasure. This was obviously too fine and expensive for a villager to own, so the goblet was presented to the king, Henry I.
Whether all this is true or not, I do not know. But that's what the story says.
3. Finally, there's the matter of the exquisite and famous goblin music. At the end of Snuff, Tears of the Mushroom performs goblin music in the A-M Opera House, to great acclaim. In Roundworld, of course, there are many tales of elf music that is so wonderful and magical that it ensnares travellers; again, that's the legend of Tam Lin.
As for Tears of the Mushroom herself - I think (though, obviously, I have no proof) that the story of her musical success may be inspired by the 19th-century Swedish opera singer, Johanna Maria "Jenny" Lind, often called the "Swedish Nightingale". She was one of the most highly regarded singers of the 19th century, performed in soprano roles in opera in Sweden and across Europe, and undertook a hugely popular concert tour of the USA (1850-2).
What do you think?
(Oh, and one more thing - Goblin Recital!)
They are recruited into the clacks business and make themselves experts on how it works. In Raising Steam, their genius with engineering and thin, questing fingers, make them naturals for work on the burgeoning railway.Just to go off on a tangent again (sorry) - the goblins have parallels in Roundworld, too. For instance:
1. The goblin practice of preserving their snot, toenails, fingernails etc. - because they were part of the body - is paralleled in various religions (though, obviously, not to that extent). Some Jews (only some) consider that if a person loses, say, an arm, then that arm should be buried as close to the person as possible. If that person isn't already dead, then the arm should be buried close to the family plot.
Many Christians believe in the same thing too, especially those who believe that, at the end of time, they will be resurrected.
2. The goblin Unggue pots are also not unprecedented. Goblins are, after all, a type of sprite. In medieval times, the belief in sprites and elves was common, and there were many stories about sprites holding feasts in the woods and inviting humans or sharing their treasures; the legend of Tam Lin is just one such story.
The Unggue pots, of course, are very fine and rare, and therefore brigands and bandits have tried to steal them for many years. Well, there are some medieval tales that claim that sprites had invited a human to their feast and gave him wine to drink from their goblets. But the human, wise to their tricks, spilled the wine and rode away, holding the goblet high. The sprites gave chase, but the human on his horse was too fast for them. He came to a village and showed them his rare treasure. This was obviously too fine and expensive for a villager to own, so the goblet was presented to the king, Henry I.
Whether all this is true or not, I do not know. But that's what the story says.
3. Finally, there's the matter of the exquisite and famous goblin music. At the end of Snuff, Tears of the Mushroom performs goblin music in the A-M Opera House, to great acclaim. In Roundworld, of course, there are many tales of elf music that is so wonderful and magical that it ensnares travellers; again, that's the legend of Tam Lin.
As for Tears of the Mushroom herself - I think (though, obviously, I have no proof) that the story of her musical success may be inspired by the 19th-century Swedish opera singer, Johanna Maria "Jenny" Lind, often called the "Swedish Nightingale". She was one of the most highly regarded singers of the 19th century, performed in soprano roles in opera in Sweden and across Europe, and undertook a hugely popular concert tour of the USA (1850-2).
What do you think?
(Oh, and one more thing - Goblin Recital!)
*LOL* Sure, but it's a good story. As pTerry says in "The Truth" ... "A lie can make it halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on."
And now I just can't resist putting that scenario into prose ... ***WARNING: SILLINESS AHEAD***
*man rides into village in Henry I's England, roughly 1200 AD or so. Guards on the gate stop him*
Guard: Halt, sirrah! Where didst thou get that sparkling cup?
Man: Me, sir? Why, the elves in the woods gave it to me.
Guard: *sighs* Not AGAIN. Dost thou have any idea how many people try that excuse, thou knavish cur?
Man: No, sir. Honest and truly, I was riding through the woods when--
(Guard whistles loudly; a new guard in fancier uniform comes out of the watch-house)
Guard: Methinks we have a new one, sarge. Says the elves gave him that sparkly cup.
Sergeant: Oho, me proud fartle-bartle! Too proud to tell the truth, eh?
Man: *sweating buckets* 'Ods bodkins, but it is the truth, sir! There be elves in the woods, and they gave me this cup, honest!
Sergeant: Don't come that one, thou lying lobcock. We knows there ain't no elves in the woods. Thou art naught but a thieving rogue!
Man: L-look, I don't want any trouble--
Sergeant: Well, thou hast found it, thou bounder! *to guard* Cuthbert, put yon knave i'the stocks for being a lying thief.
Man: What?!
Sergeant: If he would'st not tell us the truth, let him be whippeth until he does!
Guard: Aye, sarge. *to man* Come on, you.
Man: Wait! What if I present this cup to the king, as a sign of peace and goodwill?
Sergeant: That may count in your favour. But everyone knows the king is in London.
Man: No he's not! *melodramatically* Behold and lo, for the king approaceth!
(segue into the following Bugs Bunny sequence...)
You're Too Kind, Your Majesty
As pTerry says in "The Truth" ... "A lie can make it halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on." And now I just can't resist putting that scenario into prose ... ***WARNING: SILLINESS AHEAD***
*man rides into village in Henry I's England, roughly 1200 AD or so. Guards on the gate stop him*
Guard: Halt, sirrah! Where didst thou get that sparkling cup?
Man: Me, sir? Why, the elves in the woods gave it to me.
Guard: *sighs* Not AGAIN. Dost thou have any idea how many people try that excuse, thou knavish cur?
Man: No, sir. Honest and truly, I was riding through the woods when--
(Guard whistles loudly; a new guard in fancier uniform comes out of the watch-house)
Guard: Methinks we have a new one, sarge. Says the elves gave him that sparkly cup.
Sergeant: Oho, me proud fartle-bartle! Too proud to tell the truth, eh?
Man: *sweating buckets* 'Ods bodkins, but it is the truth, sir! There be elves in the woods, and they gave me this cup, honest!
Sergeant: Don't come that one, thou lying lobcock. We knows there ain't no elves in the woods. Thou art naught but a thieving rogue!
Man: L-look, I don't want any trouble--
Sergeant: Well, thou hast found it, thou bounder! *to guard* Cuthbert, put yon knave i'the stocks for being a lying thief.
Man: What?!
Sergeant: If he would'st not tell us the truth, let him be whippeth until he does!
Guard: Aye, sarge. *to man* Come on, you.
Man: Wait! What if I present this cup to the king, as a sign of peace and goodwill?
Sergeant: That may count in your favour. But everyone knows the king is in London.
Man: No he's not! *melodramatically* Behold and lo, for the king approaceth!
(segue into the following Bugs Bunny sequence...)
You're Too Kind, Your Majesty
Last edited:
Likes:
Tonyblack
I'm not sure if I agree with this, because it would suggest that Lady Sibyl was in on Vetinari's conspiracy and that the whole purpose of this "vacation" was to get Vimes to the countryside to stop the smuggling of troll narcotics hidden under the rogue tobacco. But would Vimes have even begun to investigate the smuggling if he hadn't found the body of the murdered goblin first?
I'm not suggesting that Sybil was in a conspiracy with Vetinari. Vetinari would have been far more subtle in steering the whole thing to the point where Sybil thought going to the Shires was a good idea for young Sam. The book raises the notion that Vetinari has raised a tax on tobacco products. It's clear to him that despite this cheap tobacco products are flooding the market. He almost certainly knows where the smugglers are and who is leading them, but he doesn't have any jurisdiction in another city state. So he send his "Terrier" firm in the knowledge that Vimes will sniff out a crime. Discovering the sentience of the goblins is a plus.
I started reading "Snuff" again. I can recall I didn't like it too much the first time, because I couldn't understand where people were on the down-river boat trip. Let's see if it makes more sense this time.
But I have some questions ...
1. At the start of the novel, when Vimes walks around with Willikins, he comes across as put-upon and slightly wimpy (e.g. when he asks Willikins "Do I like chicken salad?", Willikins says "I am informed by her ladyship that you do, sir," and Vimes gives up and says "I guess I do, then.") When did Vimes become wimpy?
2. Rust keeps barking "What? What?" when he meets Vimes. I know this is a stereotype of upper-class behaviour ("Can't shoot for toffee, what?") but does this "what?" mean anything? Where did it come from? I'm just curious.
3. Not a question, but a comment - I just love the pub scene, and the scene where an enthusiast tries to explain crockett (cricket) to Vimes. Vimes dies, the universe dies, the stars wheel overhead, the whole process of evolution starts and finishes ... and then the enthusiast finishes explaining.
But I have some questions ...
1. At the start of the novel, when Vimes walks around with Willikins, he comes across as put-upon and slightly wimpy (e.g. when he asks Willikins "Do I like chicken salad?", Willikins says "I am informed by her ladyship that you do, sir," and Vimes gives up and says "I guess I do, then.") When did Vimes become wimpy?
2. Rust keeps barking "What? What?" when he meets Vimes. I know this is a stereotype of upper-class behaviour ("Can't shoot for toffee, what?") but does this "what?" mean anything? Where did it come from? I'm just curious.
3. Not a question, but a comment - I just love the pub scene, and the scene where an enthusiast tries to explain crockett (cricket) to Vimes. Vimes dies, the universe dies, the stars wheel overhead, the whole process of evolution starts and finishes ... and then the enthusiast finishes explaining.
P. G. Wodehouse used to have his Bertie Wooster character using the phrase "What!" a lot (not sure about "What! what!"). I don't know how authentic it is historically, but Nigel Hawthorne used the "what, what!" a lot in The Madness of King George. I read somewhere that it is actually "wot" and it is an Old English word related to "wit" meaning to know. Wot being the first person singular "I know". Wit is probably derived from the Norse "Witan", as in a high council of leaders.
Likes:
RathDarkblade
