SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

[RathDarkblade]

Rath, I have no idea of what you're talking about. If you go look at my post, you''ll see that I clearly mention Stratford, not Carcer.

Then I don't know what happened. *shrug* When I saw your post yesterday, it mentioned Carcer. Maybe I'm going blind?

=Tamar, you're absolutely right - although it seems that the timing of Bent's "appearance" is very fortuitous for Moist. In any event, the fact remains that Moist escapes from being hanged for being "a known bank robber" because of Bent's actions, so as the protagonist, he has almost no hand in his own escape. (Except, of course, for the fact that he takes a pie in the face for Vetinari, and warns Vetinari that Bent has a daisy).

 

[Dotsie]

Maybe I'm going blind?

Only if you can't see the 'edited' comment at the bottom of Raisin's post

 

[raisindot]

Only if you can't see the 'edited' comment at the bottom of Raisin's post

Don't Believe this FAKE NEWS from the Other Side that is trying to crucify this Stable Genius.

 

[Dotsie]

 

[RathDarkblade]

Oh dear! It's the biggest witch hunt in the history of America!

(That is, if you don't count the Salem Witch Trials and the McCarthy Years, among others...)

 

[Tonyblack]

Mark Reads is currently doing Snuff and it occurred to me this time that when Vimes approaches the retired cop for help in what is going on, he gets nowhere. That cop is, to a degree, too corrupt to help. So Vimes turns to the young constable who is somewhat green for help. While he knows a certain amount that is going on, he is too inexperienced to understand the criminal nature of it. So Vimes takes him and teaches him.

All this gets to being somewhat similar to Vimes teaching himself in Night Watch.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Oh! I never noticed that before, Tony. So Feeny Upshot (in Snuff) is like Young Sam in NW, and the corrupt cop (I forget his name) is like Sergeant Knock or Corporal Quirke?

(Quirke is worse. Knock is cowardly and incompetent, but has his ear to the ground. Quirke has been described as "an efficient Nobby", i.e. not just a petty thief but a racist one who takes bribes, and who Drops His Mates in the Cacky on top of that. GRR!)

 

[raisindot]

Well, Vimes had been mentoring young, clueless cops at least since Guards! Guards. Although we really didn't see all that much "hands on" teaching of Carrot either there or in other Watch books. It was always Carrot who praised Vimes for teaching him every he knew about being a copper (although after GG Carrot became pretty good at learning the streets on his own).

 

[Tonyblack]

Vimes became much more confident with the help of Sybil. He becomes a better copper and a much better guardian of the law.

 

[raisindot]

Vimes became much more confident with the help of Sybil. He becomes a better copper and a much better guardian of the law.

TANGENT RISK!!!!!!!!

Yes, true. But it's also a bit regrettably true that some of his confidence and better copper-ness came from his elevation into the aristocracy as a result of marrying Sybil, and in part to Carrot's behind the scenes negotiations with Vetinari to have him promoted to Commander. Vimes really isn't the "self made man." He needs others to give him a metaphysical kick in the pants to make him fulfill the potential he wasn't able to achieve on his own.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm ... I politely disagree. In G!G!, Vimes doesn't really mentor Carrot; he sends Carrot out with Nobby as a mentor, of all people. I've a feeling that Carrot in G!G! would've done anything he wanted anyway - Vimes is just there to give the order (e.g. when Vimes tells Carrot to charge two Day Watch guards, and Carrot charges them with two axes).

In MAA, Vimes is distracted due to his impending marriage, so it's a Carrot book. But he does solve the case, in the end. (I haven't read MAA in ages - it's my least favourite Watch book - so I've probably forgotten something).

As for Carrot's negotiations with Vetinari ... this is probably due to the fact that Vimes himself would never do such a thing. It's not in his character to ask for a reward - he doesn't ask for one at the end of G!G!, MAA or FOC. His view of coppers is that "they do all the mucky jobs", as he tells Vetinari towards the end of FOC.

I think the reason for his elevation isn't Sybil's machinations, or Carrot's, but Vetinari's. I agree that Vimes isn't a "self-made man", but it is ultimately Vetinari's decision that propels Vimes to the top.

 

[raisindot]

SPOILERS AHEAD

While we don't see Vimes actively training Carrot, and, yes, none of it occurs in GG, we have to assume by the time of MAA that Vimes has trained him the realpolitick of police work because Carrot owns the investigation there, and he constantly refers to the lessons Vimes taught him. He continues to give Vimes credit in future books. Although we don't see Vimes's real qualities as an investigator pop up until Feet of Clay.

And Vetinari may have elevated Vimes to Commander, but it wasn't his idea--it was Carrot's idea--or rather a quid pro quo arrangement Carrot made with the Patrician that helped to boost Carrot's career as well since he ended up becoming second-in-command as a result. In exchange for this arrangement, Carrot literally buried his claim to the kingship of Ankh Morpork.

 

[=Tamar]

Vimes's marriage to Sybil saves him from a potential difficult side effect of another of Carrot's machinations. Carrot was the one who had the idea to knight Vimes. That could have caused a conflict of interest if Carrot ever took the throne, because while Vimes is sworn to uphold Law, a knight is sworn to obey the king. Fortunately, as a member of the landed aristocracy, Vimes has a precedent for disobeying any king. Establishing himself in that role in Snuff will eventually bring him the support of the other landed gentry, more so as the old ones die off (like old Rust).

 

[raisindot]

I don't have MAA in front of me. Did Carrot really suggest to Vetinari that he formally knight Vimes? I always assumed that Vimes became a knight after he married Sybil--he married into a pre-existing knighthood.

One of the most amazing things about Sybil is that when she married Vimes she turned over all of her titles to all of her property to him--no shared ownership whatsoever. Had he been a genuine bastard he could have divorced her and sent her packing with nothing. It's a testament to the faith she had in him as a person and (at the time she married him) the untapped potential that would ultimately make him one of the most powerful and respected men in the DW.

 

[Tonyblack]

Yes, Carrot did suggest the Vimes knighthood. It pleased Sybil that he was gaining rank because of his actions, not because of who he was married to. Having said that, I don't believe for a second that Sybil would love him anything less no matter what his rank was. Sybil turns over all wealth and properties to Sam, but not her rank. It doesn't work that way. Marrying a duchess (for example) does not make you a duke (although the opposite might make a difference. As we saw with Magrat, marrying a king made her a queen. That is why Prince Philip marrying a queen, doesn't make him a king. The whole system is very male oriented.

The fact that Vimes eventually outranks Sybil is a delight to Sybil and opens door to Vimes

 

[RathDarkblade]

Vimes doesn't become a knight until "Jingo", the fourth book in the Watch series (MAA was the second). And yes, Vimes is a Magnificent Bastard, not an Utter Bastard.

I always thought that Vimes does genuine detective work in G!G! too. For instance, he measures the dragon's footprints, thinks about where the dragon could've gone, etc.

 

[Dotsie]

Vimes definitely gets his knighthood at the end of MAA. But he does seem to go up in rank with every book. By Jingo, he’s probably a duke.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Oh? I must have forgotten that Vimes gets his knighthood at the end of MAA. Silly me. *blush* I only remember it happening in Jingo, when he receives the letter from Vetinari.

My mistake. I haven't read MAA in a long, long time ... it's not my favourite book. Maybe it's time to re-read it.

 

[raisindot]

Vimes became a duke (really the only duke of AM, I think) at the end of Jingo. The honor was bestowed to him by Vetinari as a reward for actions rendered.

 

[Tonyblack]

Vimes became a duke (really the only duke of AM, I think) at the end of Jingo. The honor was bestowed to him by Vetinari as a reward for actions rendered.

I think it was, at least partially, a way of raising Vimes above all the other aristocracy. Maybe a way for Vetinari to cock a snook at all those "old" families that dared to depose him.