Chapters in Discworld Books

[poohbcarrot]

I think this topic deserves its own thread, because it's something I feel strongly about. What do you think?

Tony said;

That's where the chapters like in Going Postal and Making Money come in handy - it makes it easier to find stuff.

Batty said;

I agree, Tony. The chapters 'tasters' are enjoyable too.
Going Postal, chapter seven:
The Invention of the Hole - Mr Lipwig Speaks Out - The Wizard in a Jar - A discussion of Lord Vetinari's back side - A Promise to Deliver - Mr Hobson's Boris

You just have to keep reading with an introduction like that!

I said;

I don't like chapters and especially don't like the little tasters. It seems patronising, like a "dumbing down", as if my attention span is so short and the book so inferior, that the book has to beg me to keep reading it.

To be honest, I thought the chapters only started to be used when Sir Pterry started to get more popular in the US.

 

[Tonyblack]

The use of tasters at the start of chapters is by no means a new thing - although it's new to Terry. Jonanthan Swift was using them in 1726 when he wrote Gulliver's Travels.

Let me clear up my point - I find them useful to look up a passage in the book AFTER I've read it once. Personally I didn't even bother to read them when I was reading the book for the first time and made a point to ignore them.

I never (for example) read the preview chapter for the author's next book that you sometimes find at the end of books. If I want to read that book, then I'll go and get it.

I honestly don't know why Terry has started doing this thing. It sort of gives it a period feeling that fits in with the stage of development that A-M is at. But apart from the use for referencing that I mentioned, I'm not awfully fond of it. I really don't feel it has anything to do with an larger American audience - see my point about Jonathan Swift.

My advice - if you don't like it - ignore it.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Or more disturbing perhaps, Sir Terry's been doing this for a while on his drafts because he now needs to keep notes of the plot so far and the publishing bods think it looks rather neat and started to put them on the proofs?

 

[Batty]

I still have to say that I like them. The obvious solution though, is to ignore them if you don't want to read them and jump straight to the chapter, so both the 'Fors' and the 'Againsts' are satisfied.

I was surprised when Terry started using them, as it seemed so sudden and unexpected, but when he types something like 'a discussion of Vetinari's backside' then it just makes me smile and look forward to what is about to happen.

 

[Cheery]

I seriously don't care about chapters. It doesn't matter if a book's got them or not, if it's at least good book. But I think the tasters are quite amusing, because you don't really have an idea what they're about until you read it. Your imagination comes up with some pretty funny ideas. Especially with hints like "a discussion about Lord Vetinaris backside".

 

[Cheery]

Or more disturbing perhaps, Sir Terry's been doing this for a while on his drafts because he now needs to keep notes of the plot so far and the publishing bods think it looks rather neat and started to put them on the proofs?

I think he just wanted to try something new and liked the idea about it.

 

[superfurryandy]

I remember the idiot academic and cultural elitist Tom Paulin once slagged Terry off cos he didn't write in chapters. So, presumably he'll be happy.

 

[Tonyblack]

I remember the idiot academic and cultural elitist Tom Paulin once slagged Terry off cos he didn't write in chapters. So, presumably he'll be happy.

That's actually on one of the blurbs on Interesting Times:

A complete amateur ... doesn't even write in chapters ... hasn't a clue

It just goes to show that when you have your head up your own arse as far as Mr Paulin, it's difficult to see anything.

 

[Dotsie]

It sort of gives it a period feeling that fits in with the stage of development that A-M is at.

I think you're right. I don't usually read the tasters because it slows the pace of the book. But I don't care either way.

The first time I read the "doesn't even write in chapters" quote I laughed and laughed. Book critic - they just give these jobs away!

 

[Cheery]

I remember the idiot academic and cultural elitist Tom Paulin once slagged Terry off cos he didn't write in chapters. So, presumably he'll be happy.

That's actually on one of the blurbs on Interesting Times:

A complete amateur ... doesn't even write in chapters ... hasn't a clue

It just goes to show that when you have your head up your own arse as far as Mr Paulin, it's difficult to see anything.

He doesn't just not see anything, he's totally blind! USE YOUR EYES MR PAULIN

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

What is they say?

Those that can, do - those who can't become critics (or teach *runs and hides from pooh*)

 

[poohbcarrot]

By not using chapters, TP was a rebel who was going against the accepted norm. I respected that. Now he's conforming to (I believe) please the US market. Fair enough. If he makes a load of money, good for him. He deserves it.

But it's like Johnny Rotten doing that recent TV advert. The ultimate anti-social anarchist dressed as an English gentleman promoting butter FFS!

(Jan, those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach. Anyway, I've got my own school so I'm doing and teaching.)

 

[Tonyblack]

By not using chapters, TP was a rebel who was going against the accepted norm. I respected that. Now he's conforming to (I believe) please the US market. Fair enough. If he makes a load of money, good for him. He deserves it.

I don't see your reasoning for saying that about the US market. Terry's books have sold extremly well in the US in non-chapter format for a very long time.

The books have always been largely unchanged in the US versions and Harper Collins (his US publisher) seems to have been perfectly happy. I really don't see Terry changing just to please them - if anything he'd probably dig his heals in more firmly.

I have no evidence, but I suspect that it's just something that Terry wanted to try.

 

[Tonyblack]

This is from a Wikipedia article about Terry:

Pratchett has a tendency to avoid using chapters, arguing in a Book Sense interview that "life does not happen in regular chapters, nor do movies, and Homer did not write in chapters", adding "I'm blessed if I know what function they serve in books for adults." However, there have been exceptions; Going Postal and Making Money and several of his books for younger readers are divided into chapters.

And this is from another Wikipedia article about Discworld books:

Very few of the Discworld novels have chapter divisions, instead featuring interweaving story-lines. Pratchett is quoted as saying that he "just never got into the habit of chapters", later adding that "I have to shove them in the putative YA books because my editor screams until I do". However, the first Discworld novel, The Colour of Magic, was divided into "books", as is Pyramids. Additionally, Going Postal and Making Money do indeed have chapters, prologue, epilogue, and brief teasers of what is to come in each chapter, in the style of A. A. Milne, Jules Verne and Jerome K. Jerome.

It seems from my reading of that, that Terry has included chapters in the children's/young adults books at the demand of his editors - whether that's Random House or Harper Collins, I don't know.

The use of chapters in Going Postal and Making Money seems to be an experiment in style rather than a demand by publishers.

Terry Pratchett Wiki here

Discworld Wiki here

 

[poohbcarrot]

Pratchett is quoted as saying that he "just never got into the habit of chapters", later adding that "I have to shove them in the putative YA books because my editor screams until I do".

So self-admission he succumbs to editorial pressure. It is reasonable to assume it isn't UK editorial pressure.

Is it at all possible his US editors scream at him until he puts chapters in the adult books?

 

[Tonyblack]

Pratchett is quoted as saying that he "just never got into the habit of chapters", later adding that "I have to shove them in the putative YA books because my editor screams until I do".

So self-admission he succumbs to editorial pressure. It is reasonable to assume it isn't UK editorial pressure.

Is it at all possible his US editors scream at him until he puts chapters in the adult books?

It's possible - but I don't see why you think it's US editorial pressure and dismiss the UK editors.

It's just as likely that Terry is putting chapters in the last two adult books because he made the decision to himself.

Do they really detract from your enjoyment of the books? Like I say - I just ignore them unless I'm looking for a particular passage and then I find them useful.

 

[poohbcarrot]

I seem to recall (though I could be wrong) J K Rowling's UK editors said no kid would read a massively long book but she stuck to her guns and refused to compromise. The rest is history.

I'm sure that as the UK's second biggest living seller, that TP can demand anything he wants from his UK publishers and get it. However in the US he might not even be in the top 100 sellers, so to get published and promoted he might have to compromise a bit.

If TP was as popular in the US as in England, don't you think there would have been at least one Hollywood film made of one of his books?
Don't you think there would have already been Discworld conventions in the US?

His popularity is rapidly growing in the States. If by adding chapters and teasers he can sell more books in the US, why not do it? His UK fans will buy his books regardless.

 

[Tonyblack]

Still don't follow your reasoning - the style he is copying by doing those things at the start of chapters isn't an American thing - Swift, Jerome, Milne and Verne are certainly not American writers. It seems less likely to me that Americans would be familiar with that style of chapter heading and therefore might wonder what the hell is going on.

As to Hollywood - there have been several attempts to buy the rights to the books by Hollywood. Terry either won't sell to them because they plan to change the stories too much, or they have been sold but nothing has happened yet. This is the case with several of the books.

The first North American Discworld convention is being held in September. But Discworld has been very much a part of Worldcon, the convention for the World Science Fiction Society for many years. One of the biggest problems with getting a Discworld Con together in the past (and it has been tried) is the sheer size of the US and trying to find somewhere that's acceptable to everyone.

I really don't know why you are associating these chapter headings with America.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Yeah but...

If Terry's held out for so long without chapters in the US market why start now all of a sudden when he's at the top of his game and his fame?

The teasers could be his way of sending them up for 'making' him put chapters in there maybe, or he's just bored not doing it, or felt like a change or, and I hate to say it again, it could just be he's feeling the effects of his illness and splitting it into distinct sections to help him flag what's gone before and the publisher's think it's a fun thing to include?

He's experimenting a lot of the time throughout his career as Tony points out so perhaps this is just trying other things out or playing around with the format a little in a place where it's not at all crucial to the style his fans like best?

If you don't like it, don't look at it - the actual writing's still as good

 

[Tonyblack]

It's interesting that he's done it with the two Moist books and they have a sort of Dickensian feel - maybe a bit more than some of the earlier books. This is a very old style and somewhat in fitting with the feel of the books. So maybe we'll see them on the Moist books and then no more.