SPOILERS Going Postal Discussion Spoilers

raisindot · Oct 13, 2016

I noticed that the first reading. Maybe we Yanks noticed it quicker because "Tump" is much more "prevalent" in our mass media than Across the Pond.

I do believe that Reacher Gilt was partially based on Donald. First, the names themselves have the same rhythm when spoken aloud. Second, in the 90s, Trump's failing business enterprises, which owed hundreds of millions of dollars to banks, were bailed out by the banks, who were so scared at losing all their money in bankruptcies (and were also scared of Trump) that they forgave a huge amount of his debt.

Tonyblack · Oct 13, 2016

That's probably it. It's only within the last few years that I've even been aware of idiot.

raisindot · Oct 13, 2016

Lucky you. I've been despising this "short-fingered vulgarian" (a phrase coined by NY-based satirical magazine Spy in the early 90's) for nearly 25 years.

phalarope · Oct 18, 2016

raisindot said:

This American missed it too, although I have often thought that I was missing SOMETHING. :doh: It's lovely to think of Terry satirizing such a complete loser way back then.

=Tamar · Oct 29, 2016

Not being into studying finance, I'd assumed the Tump connection was just a side comment. On the other hand, in Going Postal, it's the banks that are bailed out by the financiers. GP is part one, MM is part two of that story, in which a strong central bank is created. It's pretty close to the history of banking here in Roundworld. The result is a little too centralized for my taste - it's very close to the set-up in France, where the government controls all money, mail, and transportation. In recent Ankh-Morpork, Moist controls the Post Office (and with it, the freight system), and his SO Adorabelle controls the Clacks. Then Harry King (a rich entrepreneur in the Victorian sweatshop mode) builds and controls the railroad, which will control more freight and also a lot of travel, as the trains will put many coach companies out of business. I hope Leonard of Quirm's bicycle exerciser escapes into the culture so there's at least one alternative for personal travel.
ETA: At least Harry King and his family are ordinary enough to understand people who work, but I suspect his daughters will forget as fast as possible, and their kids will be born rich. I have hopes for Young Sam; I think he has a good start on a good upbringing.

raisindot · Oct 31, 2016

Actually, I would say the economic situation in AM is the opposite of what happens in most European countries. The banks are privately owned, including the Royal Bank of AM, which existed long before the events of GP. It probably is the Patrician's "bank of choice" for government funding and maybe it is larger than all the other banks. It also has the advantage of having the Royal Mint located on its premises, although one assumes that the Mint is run by the government, not the Lavishes.

In terms of the other "centralized" industries, Harry King got to where he is because no one else wanted to do the kind of disgusting jobs he specializes in. And he doesn't end up owning the entire railroad--in RS other competitors do enter the fray. And while Adorabelle's family owns the largest clacks company, there are other, smaller competitors out there and one assumes that other "telegraph" companies are allowed to send their traffic via main clacks line, albeit with a carrier cost, just as many small cellular service providers today use the networks of the big carriers. William de Worde started the city's first "free" press, and was almost put out of business by a tabloid-style competitor.

The point is, while it is true that certain industries in AM are dominated by a single player, they are all privately owned. Pterry was anything but a socialist in his thinking. In his later books, he celebrated the notion of talented entrepreneurs who rose to the top of their industries through honest innovation, hard work and risk-taking. Lord Venitari is the biggest proponent of this kind of entrepreneurialism. He only wants to get involved when corrupt and criminal interests threaten progress. But he doesn't do this himself--he hires proxies, mainly Moist, to do this dirty work for him.

RathDarkblade · Aug 12, 2017

Looks like I'm a little late to the party (aren't Aussies always a bit fashionably late?

), but I just wanted to share something that I recently learned, which immediately reminded me of this book.

I'm currently reading The Time Traveller's Guide to Restoration Britain by Dr Ian Mortimer. His "Time Traveller's" books are fascinating, thought-provoking, clear and well worth reading - two thumbs up!

Anyway, I'm digressing (as usual - sorry). Dr Mortimer mentions that, during the Restoration period (1660-1700), there was a real revolution in England as regards communications and especially the post. (A-ha! I hear you say!)

Before the Restoration, and especially during the Commonwealth, communication was slow and the post was discouraged. After the Restoration, it was possible for a letter to travel at a speed of up to 20 miles per day. Not only that, but posting a letter within England cost just tuppence (or thruppence from England to Scotland, or sixpence from England to Ireland).

Posting a letter to a friend in London meant that, once the postal workers had it, it would be delivered within 2 hours. The British mail system would also deliver a letter to the Continent (through French, German, Italian and Spanish ports), and as far away as Tangiers, the Middle East and even Moscow. Not only letters were delivered, but also parcels (although, obviously, they cost more).

Of course, there were still problems to be sorted out (especially with international mail), and - naturally - government mail took precedence; but the simple prospect of being able to communicate so far and wide must have seemed tremendously exciting. Imagine living during the age of Samuel Pepys and Isaac Newton, and being able to communicate with people living so far away! :-D

Naturally, this immediately reminded me of Moist von Lipwig's exploits, delivering the mail to Sto Lat, Genua and so on. Run before you can walk, indeed!

Anyway, I'm digressing... but I feel sure that Pterry probably knew about this too, being as well-read as he was. I simply wanted to share.

Has anyone else heard about this? It sounds amazingly efficient to me!

RathDarkblade · Sep 16, 2017

What are your favourite moments from "Going Postal"?

I just re-read the book and wanted to share mine...

Moments of Funny

(paraphrased)
Vetinari: "Just thinking aloud... I know government is not supposed to do that. Mr Gilt will probably say so."
-----------------------------------------
The crowd scene outside the Post Office.

Random Lady: "Are you re-opening the old place? My granddad used to work there!"

Moist: *thinks* "Well done him."

Random Lady: "He said there was a curse on the post office!"

Moist: "Really? Well I could do with a curse right about now."

Random Lady: "He said there was a thing in the cellar that drove you mad!" She seemed to enjoy the syllable so much that she repeated it. "Maaad!"

Moist: "Really? Well we don't believe in going insane in the post office, do you Mr Groa-"

Groat: "You daft old besom! Why did you have to go and tell him that for?!"

Moist: "Mr Groat! I want to see you inside right now!" *leads him inside through an amused Ankh-Morpork crowd*
-----------------------------------------
Ankh-Morpork high society notices Reacher Gilt and start thinking, "What kind of name is 'Reacher', anyway?"

Hmm... could 'Reacher' be a play on the expression 'nouveau riche', or perhaps on the word 'parvenu' - i.e. someone who was trying to 'break into high society'? In other words, a person who was 'reaching above their station', as they used to say. Maybe that's what TP was thinking of?
-----------------------------------------
A "tear-jerker" moment...

Mr Pump: "When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve... You Have Torn Bread From Their Mouths and Clothes From Their Backs..." etc.

It comes after a moment of philosophy when Mr Pump accuses Moist of murdering 2.33 people. It becomes a moment of hilarity when Moist, later, considers this: how could you murder 0.33 of a person? But Mr Pump seems to think you could murder with a ruler.* How would it be if bartenders acted like that? "Here's your brandy, sir, and I've 0.003 killed you."

* Nice call-back to Night Watch, by the way.
-----------------------------------------
Some time later... another moment of pure fun.

Moist has just passed the Postman's Walk and got the dogs - he thinks that they are pure-bred Lipwigzers - to sit. The Order of the Postmen congratulates him, and Mr Pump takes the dogs back to Harry King.

Moist tells Groat that Harry must be doing well to set loose Lipwigzers as guard dogs, and Groat replies that they are definitely not pure Lipwigzers - but cross-breeds (possibly with alligators).

Moist's reply - after a moment of silence - is: "No... problem. You know, I really have got to get some laundry done... and maybe some new shoes..."
-----------------------------------------
I had to keep a very stiff upper lip at the end of chapter 5. It's a very Moses-like moment.

The letters speaking to Moist: "Acquire Worth with Speed, Moist von Lipwig! Bring back the light! Open the Doors! Stay not the Messengers About their Business!"

...

"Moist von Lipwig?"

"Yes?"

"DELIVER US!"
-----------------------------------------
Chapter 6... Groat and Moist discuss the New Pi, built by B. S. Johnson.

Moist: "Didn't he build things? Wasn't there always a flaw?"

Groat: "That's right, sir... usually, the flaw was that they were built by Bloody Stupid Johnson."
-----------------------------------------
Chapter 6... the story of the New Pi and how the machine was finally stopped.
-----------------------------------------
Chapter 7... the stamps. Moist gets Groat excited about the idea of stamps and sending letters to everywhere in the world.

Moist: "We'll need staff, Mr Groat - a lot more staff!... Smarten up, man! The post office is back!"

Groat: "Yes, sir! We'll... we'll do quite new things in interesting ways!"

Moist rolls his eyes and says "You're getting the hang of this already."
-----------------------------------------
Adorabelle Dearheart delivers the golems to the post office, and Groat - who is unhappy - reports this to Moist. Moist is thinking about why this should make the postmen unhappy - and starts thinking: "I'd get another chance to be smiled at by Miss Dearheart... think about golems! Golems golems golems..."

*LOL*
-----------------------------------------
In chapter 6, Anghammarad - a golem who is 19,000 years old, and who used to deliver messages for kings and gods - recites from memory his own motto: "Neither deluge nor ice storm nor the black storms of the nether hells shall stay these messengers about their sacred business. Do not ask us about sabre-tooth tigers, tar pits, big green things with teeth, or the goddess Czol."

And it gets even funnier from there, with a moment of both heart-warming and hilarity: By common consent, Anghammarad becomes an Extremely Senior Postman because all the other postmen think that it's only fair.
-----------------------------------------
It gets even funnier with Miss Maccalariat turns up... and suddenly a golem becomes female, is called Gladys, and wears a gingham skirt.
-----------------------------------------
Moist is getting ready to go out on his first date with Adorabelle Dearheart. Mr Pump observes: "Anghammarad says that she reminds him of Leela, the Volcano goddess, who smokes all the time because the god of rain has rained on her lava."

"Yes," says the distracted Moist, "but women complain about that sort of thing all the time."

*LOL!!!*
-----------------------------------------
The thugs in the Mended Drum planning a choreographed bar brawl. LOL...! And Adorabelle pulling off a Dirty Harry on a maudlin drunk... and the rest of their evening together. Oh dear. *LOL*
-----------------------------------------
I had to keep a stiff upper lip when Moist confessed his past to Adorabelle Dearheart. She asked him why he was telling her all this. His reply? "Because I'm not Reacher Gilt. That's sort of important." :-(

This is followed almost immediately by a moment of awesome hilarity when Miss Maccalariat tries to hire people and asks Moist "Do we embrace divertingly?" ...because that's what they do at the Grand Trunk. (She means "embrace diversity", obviously - but Moist cuts through the bull by telling her "No, because we don't know what it means. We just employ anybody who can read and write and reach a letterbox." *L*
-----------------------------------------
Later on, we see that the Golem Trust (now closed) has an extra layer of graffiti - in crayon, and at knee level - that reads "GOLMS R MADE OF POO". (Earlier on, there was a layer of graffiti that read "SMASH THE BARSTUDS", and Terry comments: "It was good to see the tradition of idiocy passed on in a no-good-at-all sort of way.")
-----------------------------------------
Another "Stiff Upper Lip" moment...

Devious Collabone reads the "message from the dead". Spine-chilling: "There was no safety. There was no pride. There was only money. Money treated us as if we were things and we died."

...and later, Moist's reaction to all this...

"...We who died on the dark towers demand this of you..."

He ought to be ashamed. :-(

...and later still, on a tower in the dark - the clacksmen discuss the message, and one of them wonders what Granddad feared more: the fact that dead clacksmen could send a signal, or that they couldn't.

Then immediately we get a mood-whiplash with a moment of hilarity:

Devious Collabone finished reading the message, then produced a handkerchief from his pocket and rubbed off whatever the green stuff was that was beginning to grow on the glass. It made a squeaking sound.

"Was that all right, Archchancellor?" he asked nervously. "I'm not in any trouble, am I? Only I'm very close to translating the mating call of the giant clam."
------------------------------------------------------------
Terry's definition of Finance, which has to be read to be believed. *squee!!!*

Anyway, I've been going on and on for way too long. What about you?

=Tamar · Sep 18, 2017

RathDarkblade said:

I wonder if that was the reason people began writing epistolary novels. Wikipedia says the first epistolary novels seem to have been written around 1650-1669, which implies that a fairly reliable system of some kind existed, but they became really popular in the 18th century.

raisindot · Sep 19, 2017

I always loved the reference to Lord of the Rings when Ridcully first saw a huge big red eye staring back at him from the cross-continential telescope thingy.

Also loved the scene iwhen Moist is about to confess to Adorabelle that his forgeries cost her her job.

Moist: "Are you holding any kind of sharp objects right now?"

Adorabelle; "Why do you want to know?"

Moist: "Because in a moment or so you may want to kill me."

Then, after he's told her everything.

Adorabelle: "Well, I really liked the hanging bit."

RathDarkblade · Sep 20, 2017

raisindot said:

Ah yes, the huge fiery eye... and then it was replaced by a huge fiery nose...

raisindot said:

LOL! Yes, the bit when Moist was hanged. And she got him to repeat it several times. *G*

raisindot · Sep 20, 2017

RathDarkblade said:

One of the many great things about Adorabelle is her stone-cold pragmatism. When Moist later visits her at home to get the incriminating paperwork, she would have been totally justified in tossing him out. But she knows that even though he ruined her life once, he'll never do it again. He is an indebted to her as he is to Vetinari, and she knows it, which is why she agrees to cooperate with him even without knowing his plans.

RathDarkblade · Sep 21, 2017

raisindot said:

Well, yes... Moist also knows that he is indebted to her, but he is also pragmatic. When Adorabelle asks him what he intends to do with the papers, and he tells her - very specifically - that she's better off not knowing.

At first glance this appears to be rude, but in the light of what happens later, I find his reply very endearing. Moist knows that his plan could mean A LOT of trouble for him - both from Adorabelle and from Vetinari - and he is determined to carry it out anyway. He reasons that if Vetinari decides to make trouble, then only he (Moist) would be in it; Adorabelle would be well out of it. Later, he even defies Vetinari - to whom he owes so much - by refusing to take ownership of the Clacks and giving it to the Dearhearts instead.

When he meets Adorabelle again, after all the brouhaha in UU, we initially think that she may be angry with him - and again, she has every reason to. But as you say, she also shows how pragmatic she can be by refusing to be angry. As Moist says, although his plan wasn't very "nice", there was nothing nice that would have worked.

RathDarkblade · Oct 18, 2019

"Once, We Were Postmen."

And now, if you have the time and the next time you visit London, you too can see the way the post worked from the 1920s to the 1980s. Behold ... The Mail Rail Tunnels!

The letters and parcels were taken to an underground train and delivered around London at speeds of up to 40 mph, a marvel of 20th-century London engineering and technology heritage.

The Postal Museum offers walking tours of the tunnels, including a look at the original rolling stock. It reminded me of the stories that Mr Groat told Moist about "the old days" at the Ankh-Morpork Post Office.

Anyway, feel free to visit (or not). I have no commercial connection in the Postal Museum, obviously; I just thought it was interesting.

Woofb · Nov 25, 2021

[

Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit said:

Moist is a petty con-man who is given his road-to-Damascus moment by Lord Vetinari. He’s always seen what he does as fleecing people who were less intelligent who were trying to fleece him. When he realises he unwittingly drove people who had little enough to poverty and death, he’s shocked and appalled as well as trying to survive. He is like Carrot in finding common ground for people to like him, although he does it more consciously.
Meanwhile, Reacher Gilt (a good name for a vulture capitalist) is a wholesale pirate, works through intimidation, destroys the infrastructure, and cheerfully sets a murderous banshee on his many enemies.
Somebody like Moist could become a Reacher Gilt if he got much older and much richer, without anything to pull him up short and make
him realise he had to change.
Moist has the flexibility and intelligence to be salvageable. He’s the equivalent of Tom D. Fitzgerald in the “Great Brain” children’s books set in an old-fashioned US—he has all sorts of ideas in his “money-loving heart”, but has to learn about how to fit into a community.

Tonyblack · Nov 25, 2021

Agreed! Moist was more into conning people as a type of sport. The money he may have made was more a way of keeping score than trying to enrich himself. He was genuinely shocked to discover that his "games" might have proved negative to people that weren't a part of his sport. He could justify robbing greedy people, especially those that thought they could outdo his intelligence, but learning that other people, just trying to make an honest living, were also victims, was a wake-up call for him. In his work with Vetinari he was able to continue those games, without adversely effecting the powerless. It's a sort of Robin Hood type of heroism he attains.

RathDarkblade · Nov 26, 2021

"You have killed two point one seven three seven eight people."

That conversation with Mr Pump is a tear-jerker. "For sport, Mister Lipvig. For sport. For the joy of the game."

Listen if you can to Stephen Briggs delivering those lines and try not to cry. It's impossible. :cry:

Woofb · Dec 2, 2021

I can’t believe I missed the Trump reference! He’d stripped his way through all those businesses.

But there’s also a British reference at the time. Just at the turn of the millennium, the Royal Mail allowed itself to be persuaded by advertising executives that instead of that stuffy old crown they needed a new logo and identity as “Consignia” (er, “things go somewhere?” and “eventually pop up somewhere else”?)

Widespread ridicule and a creeping back to the tried-and-tested swiftly followed. I’m sure that was part of the background, as Pterry showed the “Victorian Internet” of the telegram/clacks losing out to stuff you can actually send things through.

My favourite running joke is the sign on the Post Office with the missing letters and “don’t arak us about” dogs with orange eyebrows (like Lipwigzers?), and “Mrs Cake”. Even when Mr Pump was a pump, there was a primordial version of her as “the goddess Czol”. It’s easy to imagine her bristling in with premonitions of doom that made no sense at all to the bustling Post Office of yore.

RathDarkblade · Dec 2, 2021

Er, arsk, not arak -- unless the Post Office is now selling strong Arab spirits.

Good points, though. I'm not sure we can compare the clacks with the telegraph, though. Pterry himself says that the clacks are "sempahore towers", so surely he is referring to the sempahore or optical telegraph, a technology much older than the Victorian era. From wiki:

Woofb · Dec 2, 2021

Yes, makes sense!

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