SPOILERS Making Money Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
With apologies to SWreader, whose quote I appropriated from another thread but felt it more appropriate to respond to here.
Ankh Morpork ABSOLUTELY has a growing middle class, and this is the whole point of what I would suggest is the 'canonization' of a "new" DW series--the Ankh Morpork series, consisting of "The Truth," "Going Postal," "Making Money," "Unseen Academicals," and, arguably, "Moving Pictures."
In this series, Pterry creates a chronicle showing the evolution of AM from a city whose outdated, reactionary, Guild-controlled economy is being replaced (under the machinations of Vetinari) by a new generation of entrepreneurs who are using new ideas and technologies to help AM maintain its economic leadership in the DW under the rising economic threat of emerging economies such as those in Uberwald.
And the most visible result of this effort IS the creation of a powerful middle class in AM. Yes, they're all signed up with guilds, but they are not controlled by them. If anything, they're challenging the power structure and changing the rules.
Let's look at a few examples.
Harry King is its most visible leader, a man born in poverty who has raised himself to become a key businessman of the city. Even if he is disrespected by the aristocrats, his value as the one many who can "clean up the city" is recognized by all.
All of the dwarf entrepreneurs--Gimlet, Stronginthearm, and all the others--represent the growth of small, independent small businesses. Yes, they may be members of the merchants guild, but they follow their own rules. Without them, AM (and the world) would not have its supply of armor, crossbows, printing presses and rat on a stick.
Crystophase (forgot his real name--the head of the troll Brickia) represents the aspirations of the Troll population. Even if his activities are under the legal radar screen, he also aspires to respectability. If there wasn't a growing Trollish middle class, there would be no market for the dwarf-produced cosmetics sold to middle class female trolls.
Pepe and Madam. Only in a city flush with capital and a population of middle class women could a 'dwarf operated' fashion designer make a profit.
William DeWorde. His establishment of the Times is a direct rebuke of the old ways (which he rejects personally by severing himself from his past), and his emergence as a key figure in the life of the city represents the triumph of the small businessman. And demonstrates that information is a sellable commodity as well, as also demonstrated by:
The Dearhearts (and the original Clacks company owners). They represent the new high tech startup innovators who also understand that information is money. That they were initially cheated by the old money banking establishment of AM represents the dangers these entrepreneurs take when they try to take on the establishment. Which is why Vetinari found it necessary to counter them with...
Moist Von Lipwig, the ultimate symbol of the future Ankh Morpork. Like most successful startup entrepreneurs who don't come from wealth, he achieves his goal through a combination of showmanship, cunning, risk-taking, chicanry but firmly grounded in specific business goals. He achieves them by breaking the rules, inventing new ones, and using the power of the media to gain friends and clients. That he is applying his talents to turn moribund "establishment" structures like the Post Office and the Royal Mint and Bank of Ankh Morpork into sleeker, innovative, entrepreneurial businesses represents, in microcosm, Vetinari's desire to transform the moribund economic and social institutions of AM into more innovative and nimble entities that reflect the entrepreneurial spirit of its growing middle class. This is why Vetinari needs to give Moist new challenges. When Moist succeeds, he begins to adopt the mores of the ruling class--guild meetings, thoughts of gold chains, and whatnot. A Moist who has "gone establishment" is of no use to Vetinari.
So even if MM isn't one of the better DW books, it does clearly demonstrate that PTerry is trying to create an economic history of the city, which all of the books in this 'series' represent in one way or the other.
Wow. That felt like 10,000 words.
J-I-B
Ankh Morpork ABSOLUTELY has a growing middle class, and this is the whole point of what I would suggest is the 'canonization' of a "new" DW series--the Ankh Morpork series, consisting of "The Truth," "Going Postal," "Making Money," "Unseen Academicals," and, arguably, "Moving Pictures."
In this series, Pterry creates a chronicle showing the evolution of AM from a city whose outdated, reactionary, Guild-controlled economy is being replaced (under the machinations of Vetinari) by a new generation of entrepreneurs who are using new ideas and technologies to help AM maintain its economic leadership in the DW under the rising economic threat of emerging economies such as those in Uberwald.
And the most visible result of this effort IS the creation of a powerful middle class in AM. Yes, they're all signed up with guilds, but they are not controlled by them. If anything, they're challenging the power structure and changing the rules.
Let's look at a few examples.
Harry King is its most visible leader, a man born in poverty who has raised himself to become a key businessman of the city. Even if he is disrespected by the aristocrats, his value as the one many who can "clean up the city" is recognized by all.
All of the dwarf entrepreneurs--Gimlet, Stronginthearm, and all the others--represent the growth of small, independent small businesses. Yes, they may be members of the merchants guild, but they follow their own rules. Without them, AM (and the world) would not have its supply of armor, crossbows, printing presses and rat on a stick.
Crystophase (forgot his real name--the head of the troll Brickia) represents the aspirations of the Troll population. Even if his activities are under the legal radar screen, he also aspires to respectability. If there wasn't a growing Trollish middle class, there would be no market for the dwarf-produced cosmetics sold to middle class female trolls.
Pepe and Madam. Only in a city flush with capital and a population of middle class women could a 'dwarf operated' fashion designer make a profit.
William DeWorde. His establishment of the Times is a direct rebuke of the old ways (which he rejects personally by severing himself from his past), and his emergence as a key figure in the life of the city represents the triumph of the small businessman. And demonstrates that information is a sellable commodity as well, as also demonstrated by:
The Dearhearts (and the original Clacks company owners). They represent the new high tech startup innovators who also understand that information is money. That they were initially cheated by the old money banking establishment of AM represents the dangers these entrepreneurs take when they try to take on the establishment. Which is why Vetinari found it necessary to counter them with...
Moist Von Lipwig, the ultimate symbol of the future Ankh Morpork. Like most successful startup entrepreneurs who don't come from wealth, he achieves his goal through a combination of showmanship, cunning, risk-taking, chicanry but firmly grounded in specific business goals. He achieves them by breaking the rules, inventing new ones, and using the power of the media to gain friends and clients. That he is applying his talents to turn moribund "establishment" structures like the Post Office and the Royal Mint and Bank of Ankh Morpork into sleeker, innovative, entrepreneurial businesses represents, in microcosm, Vetinari's desire to transform the moribund economic and social institutions of AM into more innovative and nimble entities that reflect the entrepreneurial spirit of its growing middle class. This is why Vetinari needs to give Moist new challenges. When Moist succeeds, he begins to adopt the mores of the ruling class--guild meetings, thoughts of gold chains, and whatnot. A Moist who has "gone establishment" is of no use to Vetinari.
So even if MM isn't one of the better DW books, it does clearly demonstrate that PTerry is trying to create an economic history of the city, which all of the books in this 'series' represent in one way or the other.
Wow. That felt like 10,000 words.
J-I-B
raisindot said:
With apologies to SWreader, whose quote I appropriated from another thread but felt it more appropriate to respond to here.
Ankh Morpork ABSOLUTELY has a growing middle class, and this is the whole point of what I would suggest is the 'canonization' of a "new" DW series--the Ankh Morpork series, consisting of "The Truth," "Going Postal," "Making Money," "Unseen Academicals," and, arguably, "Moving Pictures."
In this series, Pterry creates a chronicle showing the evolution of AM from a city whose outdated, reactionary, Guild-controlled economy is being replaced (under the machinations of Vetinari) by a new generation of entrepreneurs who are using new ideas and technologies to help AM maintain its economic leadership in the DW under the rising economic threat of emerging economies such as those in Uberwald.
And the most visible result of this effort IS the creation of a powerful middle class in AM. Yes, they're all signed up with guilds, but they are not controlled by them. If anything, they're challenging the power structure and changing the rules.
Let's look at a few examples.
Harry King is its most visible leader, a man born in poverty who has raised himself to become a key businessman of the city. Even if he is disrespected by the aristocrats, his value as the one many who can "clean up the city" is recognized by all.
All of the dwarf entrepreneurs--Gimlet, Stronginthearm, and all the others--represent the growth of small, independent small businesses. Yes, they may be members of the merchants guild, but they follow their own rules. Without them, AM (and the world) would not have its supply of armor, crossbows, printing presses and rat on a stick.
Crystophase (forgot his real name--the head of the troll Brickia) represents the aspirations of the Troll population. Even if his activities are under the legal radar screen, he also aspires to respectability. If there wasn't a growing Trollish middle class, there would be no market for the dwarf-produced cosmetics sold to middle class female trolls.
Pepe and Madam. Only in a city flush with capital and a population of middle class women could a 'dwarf operated' fashion designer make a profit.
William DeWorde. His establishment of the Times is a direct rebuke of the old ways (which he rejects personally by severing himself from his past), and his emergence as a key figure in the life of the city represents the triumph of the small businessman. And demonstrates that information is a sellable commodity as well, as also demonstrated by:
The Dearhearts (and the original Clacks company owners). They represent the new high tech startup innovators who also understand that information is money. That they were initially cheated by the old money banking establishment of AM represents the dangers these entrepreneurs take when they try to take on the establishment. Which is why Vetinari found it necessary to counter them with...
Moist Von Lipwig, the ultimate symbol of the future Ankh Morpork. Like most successful startup entrepreneurs who don't come from wealth, he achieves his goal through a combination of showmanship, cunning, risk-taking, chicanry but firmly grounded in specific business goals. He achieves them by breaking the rules, inventing new ones, and using the power of the media to gain friends and clients. That he is applying his talents to turn moribund "establishment" structures like the Post Office and the Royal Mint and Bank of Ankh Morpork into sleeker, innovative, entrepreneurial businesses represents, in microcosm, Vetinari's desire to transform the moribund economic and social institutions of AM into more innovative and nimble entities that reflect the entrepreneurial spirit of its growing middle class. This is why Vetinari needs to give Moist new challenges. When Moist succeeds, he begins to adopt the mores of the ruling class--guild meetings, thoughts of gold chains, and whatnot. A Moist who has "gone establishment" is of no use to Vetinari.
So even if MM isn't one of the better DW books, it does clearly demonstrate that PTerry is trying to create an economic history of the city, which all of the books in this 'series' represent in one way or the other.
Wow. That felt like 10,000 words.
J-I-B
Ankh Morpork ABSOLUTELY has a growing middle class, and this is the whole point of what I would suggest is the 'canonization' of a "new" DW series--the Ankh Morpork series, consisting of "The Truth," "Going Postal," "Making Money," "Unseen Academicals," and, arguably, "Moving Pictures."
In this series, Pterry creates a chronicle showing the evolution of AM from a city whose outdated, reactionary, Guild-controlled economy is being replaced (under the machinations of Vetinari) by a new generation of entrepreneurs who are using new ideas and technologies to help AM maintain its economic leadership in the DW under the rising economic threat of emerging economies such as those in Uberwald.
And the most visible result of this effort IS the creation of a powerful middle class in AM. Yes, they're all signed up with guilds, but they are not controlled by them. If anything, they're challenging the power structure and changing the rules.
Let's look at a few examples.
Harry King is its most visible leader, a man born in poverty who has raised himself to become a key businessman of the city. Even if he is disrespected by the aristocrats, his value as the one many who can "clean up the city" is recognized by all.
All of the dwarf entrepreneurs--Gimlet, Stronginthearm, and all the others--represent the growth of small, independent small businesses. Yes, they may be members of the merchants guild, but they follow their own rules. Without them, AM (and the world) would not have its supply of armor, crossbows, printing presses and rat on a stick.
Crystophase (forgot his real name--the head of the troll Brickia) represents the aspirations of the Troll population. Even if his activities are under the legal radar screen, he also aspires to respectability. If there wasn't a growing Trollish middle class, there would be no market for the dwarf-produced cosmetics sold to middle class female trolls.
Pepe and Madam. Only in a city flush with capital and a population of middle class women could a 'dwarf operated' fashion designer make a profit.
William DeWorde. His establishment of the Times is a direct rebuke of the old ways (which he rejects personally by severing himself from his past), and his emergence as a key figure in the life of the city represents the triumph of the small businessman. And demonstrates that information is a sellable commodity as well, as also demonstrated by:
The Dearhearts (and the original Clacks company owners). They represent the new high tech startup innovators who also understand that information is money. That they were initially cheated by the old money banking establishment of AM represents the dangers these entrepreneurs take when they try to take on the establishment. Which is why Vetinari found it necessary to counter them with...
Moist Von Lipwig, the ultimate symbol of the future Ankh Morpork. Like most successful startup entrepreneurs who don't come from wealth, he achieves his goal through a combination of showmanship, cunning, risk-taking, chicanry but firmly grounded in specific business goals. He achieves them by breaking the rules, inventing new ones, and using the power of the media to gain friends and clients. That he is applying his talents to turn moribund "establishment" structures like the Post Office and the Royal Mint and Bank of Ankh Morpork into sleeker, innovative, entrepreneurial businesses represents, in microcosm, Vetinari's desire to transform the moribund economic and social institutions of AM into more innovative and nimble entities that reflect the entrepreneurial spirit of its growing middle class. This is why Vetinari needs to give Moist new challenges. When Moist succeeds, he begins to adopt the mores of the ruling class--guild meetings, thoughts of gold chains, and whatnot. A Moist who has "gone establishment" is of no use to Vetinari.
So even if MM isn't one of the better DW books, it does clearly demonstrate that PTerry is trying to create an economic history of the city, which all of the books in this 'series' represent in one way or the other.
Wow. That felt like 10,000 words.
J-I-B
), but didn't you say the exact same thing but more concisely before?And I would argue about Moving Pictures, as that mainly didn't take place in A-M. If you're going to include MP then you'll have to include Soul Music too. And Hogfather with the department store. And Thief of Time with the chocolate shop.
Cynical? Moi?
RAISING TAXES
*The new Discworld two-word titled novel (the first word ending in -ing) featuring Moist Von Lipwig and exactly the same story line as Going Postal/Making Money*
1. Vetinari "pursuades" Moist to reform the tax system.
2. The tax office is tatty and Moist redecorates it.
3. The tax office is run by some eccentric old dude and without him, would not function.
4. There is a mysterious/magical machine in the basement.
5. The bad guy, who wants to become Patrician, employs a hired assassin to bump off other people.
6. The hired assassin is killed by one of the tax inspectors.
7. Some golems feature prominently which are at least 25,000 years old.
8. Moist saves the day by inventing some kind of paper jobbie.
9. The final showdown, which Moist wins by winging it, takes place in a big room in front of all the prominent A-M leaders.
10. The story ends with Vetinari talking about the next -ing story in the series eg; "Driving Licence".
11. Spike doesn't stop smoking, doesn't marry Moist and attempts to stab at least one person/troll/dwarf/etc in the foot with her stilleto heels.
12. There is a furry animal of some description that Moist has to save eg; a hamster.
RAISING TAXES
*The new Discworld two-word titled novel (the first word ending in -ing) featuring Moist Von Lipwig and exactly the same story line as Going Postal/Making Money*
1. Vetinari "pursuades" Moist to reform the tax system.
2. The tax office is tatty and Moist redecorates it.
3. The tax office is run by some eccentric old dude and without him, would not function.
4. There is a mysterious/magical machine in the basement.
5. The bad guy, who wants to become Patrician, employs a hired assassin to bump off other people.
6. The hired assassin is killed by one of the tax inspectors.
7. Some golems feature prominently which are at least 25,000 years old.
8. Moist saves the day by inventing some kind of paper jobbie.
9. The final showdown, which Moist wins by winging it, takes place in a big room in front of all the prominent A-M leaders.
10. The story ends with Vetinari talking about the next -ing story in the series eg; "Driving Licence".
11. Spike doesn't stop smoking, doesn't marry Moist and attempts to stab at least one person/troll/dwarf/etc in the foot with her stilleto heels.
12. There is a furry animal of some description that Moist has to save eg; a hamster.
poohcarrot said:
I completely agree with all of that (as I stated last time ), but didn't you say the exact same thing but more concisely before?
And I would argue about Moving Pictures, as that mainly didn't take place in A-M. If you're going to include MP then you'll have to include Soul Music too. And Hogfather with the department store. And Thief of Time with the chocolate shop.
), but didn't you say the exact same thing but more concisely before?And I would argue about Moving Pictures, as that mainly didn't take place in A-M. If you're going to include MP then you'll have to include Soul Music too. And Hogfather with the department store. And Thief of Time with the chocolate shop.
Anyway, I'm not a strong advocate for including MP in the series. Not because it didn't take place in AM (it took place very close to the city, didn't it? Many of its residents--CMOT, Gaspode, Detritus, and (if I remember correctly) the Patrician were all in it), but because it really isn't about the socioeconomic progression of AM. I'd suggest that PTerry only really began thinking seriously creating a deeper socioeconomic narrative of AM (and DW in general) starting with "The Fifth Elephant."
In any case, Soul Music, Hogfather and Thief of Time would have even less of a place in this series because 1) Hogfather's and Thief of Time's events take place all over the DW, not just in AM; 2) Soul Music is in some ways a variation of the Moving Pictures genre book; and 3) SM, TT and H have ALREADY been canonized in the Death series!
J-I-B
raisindot said:
(my bolds) Anyway, I'm not a strong advocate for including MP in the series. Not because it didn't take place in AM (it took place very close to the city, didn't it? Many of its residents--CMOT, Gaspode, Detritus, and (if I remember correctly) the Patrician were all in it), but because it really isn't about the socioeconomic progression of AM. I'd suggest that PTerry only really began thinking seriously creating a deeper socioeconomic narrative of AM (and DW in general) starting with "The Fifth Elephant."
In any case, Soul Music, Hogfather and Thief of Time would have even less of a place in this series because 1) Hogfather's and Thief of Time's events take place all over the DW, not just in AM; 2) Soul Music is in some ways a variation of the Moving Pictures genre book; and 3) SM, TT and H have ALREADY been canonized in the Death series!
J-I-B
In any case, Soul Music, Hogfather and Thief of Time would have even less of a place in this series because 1) Hogfather's and Thief of Time's events take place all over the DW, not just in AM; 2) Soul Music is in some ways a variation of the Moving Pictures genre book; and 3) SM, TT and H have ALREADY been canonized in the Death series!
J-I-B
Where does MP come in the ENTIRE series? It's the 10th one and it follows Guards Guards and Eric.
With the possible exception of Eric (can't be bothered to look up if it started there or not) they're ALL in AM in some way, or for some of the time, and they've ALL got Death in it, but then Death's in all of them anyway, just not always 'starring'.
MP doesn't merely have Gaspode and Detritus in it - it's the first time we ever see Gaspode and Detritus becomes far more than a walk on as it's where he meets Ruby and starts to grow in character if not in sentience. Also for Trolls as a whole we have the solution to their light phobia (the lightscreen lotion) which may not be mentioned again but Trolls will function quite happily in daylight from thereon without further explanation because the problem's solved! Not to mention Detritus being able to join up with the Watch
Yes, AM has to develop and FE is the first significant book of the 'techno-industrialisation' of the city and it's consequent service sector,
but so what? It's not the city it's the people who need the development, and the sophistication of leisure time is one of the signs of an emerging economy in which theatre and music are the vanguard of that 'advance'. Think of it in terms of the Roundworld. Did we have theatre and music before industrial advancement - yes we did. In fact we had them well before we learnt how to make 'stone' using fire and earth. Civilisation advances with the Arts first and then technology. The Science of the Discworld 2 bears this out because Roundworld had no narrativum, therefore it had no real dynamism towards technology-based societies. So - far from being 'irrelevant' MP and SM are in fact vital landmarks on the path to the industrial growth of AM.
PS - this is me getting passionate about MP not MM :twisted:
Jan, as good as MP, SM, Hogfather and the early Guards books are, none of them serve as demonstrations of the advancement of AM as an economic entity. Movies and Music with Rocks come and go, and, except for a couple of occasional one-line references, disappear from the AM narrative. Hogfather really isn't about AM, and much of the action takes place outside of the city. Even Maskerade, while most of its action takes place within AM, the characters rarely venture far beyond the Opera House.
These books are character and plot focused. But they add little lasting impact to the history and economic progression of AM. I'd argue that the first book where Pterry begins to dig under the surface of AM is "Feet of Clay," because he literally digs under the surface to show the economic relationships between the golems and the people who use (and abuse) them, a theme that becomes of the key sideplots of the Moist books. Jingo begins to add flesh to AM economic/political by showing its relation to other countries in the world and demonstrating, really for the first time, Vetinari's true Machiavellian skills. And, as I've I said, TFE really takes this all a step forward by showcasing AM as the DW's center of innovation (the Clacks), global manufacturing exports (AM's dwarf craftsmen), and hard-headed diplomacy (Sam Vimes and Sibyl).
If these books weren't already canonized in the "Guards" series I'd suggest that they should be added to the "Economic" sreries as well.
From this point on, Pterry moves away from parodies and largely character-and-myth based stories and consciously works to create deep histories, traditions, and politics of the trolls, dwarfs, and humans in ways he only scratches the sufface of in earlier books.
This doesn't mean that SM, Hogather, and MP aren't great books in their own right. They are. My argument is that they were written when Pterry was more interested in either creating straight parodies (MP) or fleshing out his continuing characters (Death and Susan) than in creating Tolkienesque histories of its peoples and settings.
J-I-B
These books are character and plot focused. But they add little lasting impact to the history and economic progression of AM. I'd argue that the first book where Pterry begins to dig under the surface of AM is "Feet of Clay," because he literally digs under the surface to show the economic relationships between the golems and the people who use (and abuse) them, a theme that becomes of the key sideplots of the Moist books. Jingo begins to add flesh to AM economic/political by showing its relation to other countries in the world and demonstrating, really for the first time, Vetinari's true Machiavellian skills. And, as I've I said, TFE really takes this all a step forward by showcasing AM as the DW's center of innovation (the Clacks), global manufacturing exports (AM's dwarf craftsmen), and hard-headed diplomacy (Sam Vimes and Sibyl).
If these books weren't already canonized in the "Guards" series I'd suggest that they should be added to the "Economic" sreries as well.
From this point on, Pterry moves away from parodies and largely character-and-myth based stories and consciously works to create deep histories, traditions, and politics of the trolls, dwarfs, and humans in ways he only scratches the sufface of in earlier books.
This doesn't mean that SM, Hogather, and MP aren't great books in their own right. They are. My argument is that they were written when Pterry was more interested in either creating straight parodies (MP) or fleshing out his continuing characters (Death and Susan) than in creating Tolkienesque histories of its peoples and settings.
J-I-B
This is an 'agree to disagree' moment I think Jeff - you already said it yourself but I'll labour the point
socio is the reason for economics. Society demands progression - economics provides it. Part of the bonus of that economic provision is that society gets more leisure and more sophistication and because there is a better economy, what does society spend the benefits on?
Music ~ proper instruments instead of gourds, hollow tree trunks and reeds - a rationalisation of the sounds they can make with a language to record the notes - then a way to preserve the production of those notes.
Visual Arts ~ Increasingly stable mixtures to produce line and colour instead of basic earth pigments - stimulating imagination to better record dreams and movement and a means of doing this in an organised manner (flick-book animation in full colour, magic lanterns) - developing this into a method where light and colour can be captured so quickly that the hand and eye do not have to be involved at all so long as the mind can select the aesthetic as well as the functional...
How do people (including Trolls and Dwarves etc) enjoy the benefits of an advanced society with a healthy economy on a Roundworld?
Ug and Ugette 20,000BCE ~ after a successful day's hunting-gathering together Ug and Ugette decide to go to the art gallery three caves down the trail and look at the action-packed and informative New Expressionist presentation 'How we caught that sodding great Mammoth the other day' which, in the torchlight is so marvellously realised it looks like all the people are running around digging the pit trap... Then a short stroll in the moonlight down the Great Boar and Reed-pipe campfire by the lake to listen to the lastest tune and have some of that lovely fermentd berry-juice that Uggy-Ug makes and perhaps a bit of slow-dancing
Sharon and Kevin Now CE ~ after a frantic day sorting out e-cabling for a new Mall complex (Kevin) and the ISP support office (Sharon) meet up at the Tapas Bar and chug-a-lug a few pints of Chateau le Freak then catch the ('underground') train to catch *insert some noisy band of choice* gig down the Pig & Whistle around the corner from where their flat is - and an easy stroll back home in the moonlight.
Society may have economy and industry but they want to enjoy the benefits by being able to afford the finer things in life. The two go hand in glove, but the aesthetic leisure objectives remains constant and both feeds and improves on the practical provision that the current technology provides.
A chicken and egg situation perhaps but both require sex to exist - which is of course also a time-honoured method of 'sentient' entertainment :twisted:
Nice encapsulation of the relationship between society, economics and aesthetics.
I would argue that economics comes first. Societies form as a way to make economics more efficient. It's much easier for a group of families to kill and cook a bison together (and fend off attacks from lions) than it is for a single hunter to do it on his own.
Anyway, none of this in any way disproves my original argument that neither MP nor SM can any way be considered as conscious attempts to PTerry to create a socioeconomic history of AM. As I said, you never again hear of music-with-rocks clubs or moving-pictures theaters in any future DW book. They're one-trick ponies. Fun at first, but irrelevant in the long view.
J-I-B
I would argue that economics comes first. Societies form as a way to make economics more efficient. It's much easier for a group of families to kill and cook a bison together (and fend off attacks from lions) than it is for a single hunter to do it on his own.
Anyway, none of this in any way disproves my original argument that neither MP nor SM can any way be considered as conscious attempts to PTerry to create a socioeconomic history of AM. As I said, you never again hear of music-with-rocks clubs or moving-pictures theaters in any future DW book. They're one-trick ponies. Fun at first, but irrelevant in the long view.
J-I-B
Okay, back to the story.
Opinion, please.
After Igor 'perfects' the Glooper, alledgedly so much so that it 100% accurately represents the economy of AM, Hubert discovers that the little tube where all the bank's gold is represented is empty. Thus, all of the gold in the vault is gone.
Question: Did the act of perfecting the Glooper at this time in the story cause the gold to disappear (thus creating a new past wherein the Lavishes all stole the gold over time with Mr. Bent as an unwitting accomplice), or did the act of perfecting the Glooper simply represent the state of the vault at that time (i.e., the gold had always been missing; the Glooper simply visualized this).
Somehow, I can't stop somehow thinking of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle when I think about this.
Don't use what happened to the gold on the very last pages to aid in the answer, since that action was done purposely and was made possibly by Igor's mystical abilities, aided and encouraged by Herbert's ascent into diabolicality.
J-I-B
Opinion, please.
After Igor 'perfects' the Glooper, alledgedly so much so that it 100% accurately represents the economy of AM, Hubert discovers that the little tube where all the bank's gold is represented is empty. Thus, all of the gold in the vault is gone.
Question: Did the act of perfecting the Glooper at this time in the story cause the gold to disappear (thus creating a new past wherein the Lavishes all stole the gold over time with Mr. Bent as an unwitting accomplice), or did the act of perfecting the Glooper simply represent the state of the vault at that time (i.e., the gold had always been missing; the Glooper simply visualized this).
Somehow, I can't stop somehow thinking of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle when I think about this.
Don't use what happened to the gold on the very last pages to aid in the answer, since that action was done purposely and was made possibly by Igor's mystical abilities, aided and encouraged by Herbert's ascent into diabolicality.
J-I-B
