Moist von Lipwig - love him or hate him
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
No you're not the only one, but not me OMB 
(do you mind the contraction? - you can call me JVQ )
Vetinari is making the most of Moist's skills like he does everyone else. If Veninari's 'grooming' him for anything it's merely to step into his shoes when he dies - Moist could never 'take over' he's not objective enough for starters and it's always about him and never about the city or even Ms. D.
I think Vetinari's not that fond of him personally - he's possibly the best 'tool' in the box for the intellectual manipulation and manoeuvring but he's too much of a showman (and a show-off) for Vetinari in a way. What I think Vetinari is doing is assembling a presidential 'team' with Vime as 'heart', Carrot as 'spirit', de Worde as 'conscience' and Moist as 'brain' (I'd say 'mastermind' but I dislike Moist too much to give him that excuse - maybe I'd go as far as to say 'ego' which is possibly more suitable since he essentially amoral and 'does good' for the look of it more than anything :twisted: )
(do you mind the contraction? - you can call me JVQ )Vetinari is making the most of Moist's skills like he does everyone else. If Veninari's 'grooming' him for anything it's merely to step into his shoes when he dies - Moist could never 'take over' he's not objective enough for starters and it's always about him and never about the city or even Ms. D.
I think Vetinari's not that fond of him personally - he's possibly the best 'tool' in the box for the intellectual manipulation and manoeuvring but he's too much of a showman (and a show-off) for Vetinari in a way. What I think Vetinari is doing is assembling a presidential 'team' with Vime as 'heart', Carrot as 'spirit', de Worde as 'conscience' and Moist as 'brain' (I'd say 'mastermind' but I dislike Moist too much to give him that excuse - maybe I'd go as far as to say 'ego' which is possibly more suitable since he essentially amoral and 'does good' for the look of it more than anything :twisted: )
One Man Bucket is already a shortened version of One Man Throwing a Bucket Over Two Dogs so feel free to further shorten it if you like.
So far as I can see, Lipwig may be about putting on a show but he certainly puts the good of the city above personal glory or making loads of money. As Patrician, Moist would always be on the news and he'd be making sweeping and constant reforms that'd give him the popular vote making him too popular for the Guild's to shift him without causing riots.
So far as I can see, Lipwig may be about putting on a show but he certainly puts the good of the city above personal glory or making loads of money. As Patrician, Moist would always be on the news and he'd be making sweeping and constant reforms that'd give him the popular vote making him too popular for the Guild's to shift him without causing riots.
It's more like Hannibal in the A Team - he does it for 'the jazz' (like the fly on the wall climbing). We're going to have to agree to disagree. Moist lacks objectivity or perhaps 'sang froid' - and that's why Vetinari always wins
Also 'populist' leaders in a place like AM would eventually need to pull bigger and bigger stunts to maintain it - even JFK didn't have the charisma to pull that off
The mob has a very short attention span so this is why Vetinari keep it all balanced - they simply can't understand him at all so he's fascinating without needing to be a visible 'crowd-pleaser' that much.
That's exactly how Moist has been working so far. In GP he pulled of some stunts and in MM he pulled of even bigger stunts. In Raising Taxes, he's probably going to pull of even bigger stunts than he did in the first two books.
Look at the mob in Making Money. They seemed to remember Moist from his escapades with the stamps and Moist was able to build from that basis to do the stuff he did in MM. The mobs attention span isn't as short as you think it is.
Look at the mob in Making Money. They seemed to remember Moist from his escapades with the stamps and Moist was able to build from that basis to do the stuff he did in MM. The mobs attention span isn't as short as you think it is.
But it's also not as long or 'discerning' as you seem to think - This is a city that had a dragon for King and was starting to find that a little less than novel so long as all they had to do was turn out to watch someone else's daughter being turned into a canape...
Plus there's the bloody-minded lot who'd get fed up with flash and think he was getting too big for his boots (look what happened to that nice Mr. Blair once he tried to smile his way out of some poor bastard committing suicide because he knew there were no WoMD to find
) Mere mortals can only charm for so long - now if Moist was an elf... :twisted:
This is a city that had a dragon for King and was starting to find that a little less than novel so long as all they had to do was turn out to watch someone else's daughter being turned into a canape... Plus there's the bloody-minded lot who'd get fed up with flash and think he was getting too big for his boots (look what happened to that nice Mr. Blair once he tried to smile his way out of some poor bastard committing suicide because he knew there were no WoMD to find
) Mere mortals can only charm for so long - now if Moist was an elf... :twisted:
Well, Vetinari isn't going anywhere quickly so Moist still has time to become Patrician material. I just happen to think he's further along that path than you do.
I had thought he was grooming Vimes but with them being the same age I'd say Vimes would've retired for real when Vetinari decides he's no longer competant enough to rule the city
I had thought he was grooming Vimes but with them being the same age I'd say Vimes would've retired for real when Vetinari decides he's no longer competant enough to rule the city
Yes, I actually suggested this awhile ago and was generally disagreed upon but I do think that's his goal.
Vetinari understands that the "old ways" are going by the wayside. The Ankh Morpork of the future is going to have to abandon its reliance on guidds, which tend to stifle creativity and innovation, and embrance entrepreneurs with new ideas as the wave of the future. And future Patricians are going to have to rely less on keeping the guilds and aristocracy in line and more on keeping the economy of AM growing.
Vetinari understands that the "sword with the blood of a thousand men" style of leadership is out of date in this new world, and that while he can't fully escape from the traditional model, he can pave the way toward future models that make sure that AM doesn't return to the bloody Lord Snapcase models.
Moist represents the kind of future Patrician that Vetinari has in mind. The trials he subjects Moist to are tests to see how Moist handles opposition. That Moist does it through slight of hand doesn't bother Vetinari all that much--to him, the end that he wants to see justifies whatever means Moist does to achieve it.
Moist doesn't need to cowtow to the aristocracy--the dying old money of the city who are rapidly becoming obselete--because he can win the hearts of the growing middle class in AM--the craftsmen, businessmen, technologies, and Dibblers of the world who will move the city forward. Vetinari wants to create economic competition to free the city from the old ways, or at least to provide competition with monopolies (a la the post office competing with the clacks) and try to provide modern economic methods (using paper money) and shedding outdated mythologies (the importance of relying on gold).
Moist can accomplish these things. What he lacks--and what Vetinari still sees he lacks--is that violent nature that a Patrician needs to have. This is why he will continue to put Moist in challenging and potentially lethal situations--such as becoming the new tax collector. Like a master guiding the future of an apprentice, he is constantly testing Moist, with the ultimate goal being 'anointing' Moist as his successor.
J-I-B
Moist represents these ideals and represents a different style of leadership.
Vetinari understands that the "old ways" are going by the wayside. The Ankh Morpork of the future is going to have to abandon its reliance on guidds, which tend to stifle creativity and innovation, and embrance entrepreneurs with new ideas as the wave of the future. And future Patricians are going to have to rely less on keeping the guilds and aristocracy in line and more on keeping the economy of AM growing.
Vetinari understands that the "sword with the blood of a thousand men" style of leadership is out of date in this new world, and that while he can't fully escape from the traditional model, he can pave the way toward future models that make sure that AM doesn't return to the bloody Lord Snapcase models.
Moist represents the kind of future Patrician that Vetinari has in mind. The trials he subjects Moist to are tests to see how Moist handles opposition. That Moist does it through slight of hand doesn't bother Vetinari all that much--to him, the end that he wants to see justifies whatever means Moist does to achieve it.
Moist doesn't need to cowtow to the aristocracy--the dying old money of the city who are rapidly becoming obselete--because he can win the hearts of the growing middle class in AM--the craftsmen, businessmen, technologies, and Dibblers of the world who will move the city forward. Vetinari wants to create economic competition to free the city from the old ways, or at least to provide competition with monopolies (a la the post office competing with the clacks) and try to provide modern economic methods (using paper money) and shedding outdated mythologies (the importance of relying on gold).
Moist can accomplish these things. What he lacks--and what Vetinari still sees he lacks--is that violent nature that a Patrician needs to have. This is why he will continue to put Moist in challenging and potentially lethal situations--such as becoming the new tax collector. Like a master guiding the future of an apprentice, he is constantly testing Moist, with the ultimate goal being 'anointing' Moist as his successor.
J-I-B
Moist represents these ideals and represents a different style of leadership.
Sorry Jeff (and OMB)-- this idea just doesn't make any sense for two reasons: 1) We are talking about fictional characters (and thus speculation may be intriguing but makes no particular sense from a literary point of view; 2) Moist is a fun character, who grows and develops in the two books (he's a troubleshooter who gets bored once things are running smoothly). I found him much less satisfactory in MM--but then I found the whole book very unsatisfactory.
And Jeff, your statement, "
Moist doesn't need to cowtow to the aristocracy--the dying old money of the city who are rapidly becoming obselete--because he can win the hearts of the growing middle class in AM--the craftsmen, businessmen, technologies, and Dibblers of the world who will move the city forward," is totally unsupported by anything in the AM novels. What growing middle-class??? And there are still big money people who keep the banks from failing and keep the damage done by Reacher & Co's embezzlement etc. from causing a financial crisis. They act rather like the Fed. Reserve and the Congress with the TARP payments. But nothing of that seems to have trickled down in the real world, and it is unlikely to do so in AM
And Jeff, your statement, "
Moist doesn't need to cowtow to the aristocracy--the dying old money of the city who are rapidly becoming obselete--because he can win the hearts of the growing middle class in AM--the craftsmen, businessmen, technologies, and Dibblers of the world who will move the city forward," is totally unsupported by anything in the AM novels. What growing middle-class??? And there are still big money people who keep the banks from failing and keep the damage done by Reacher & Co's embezzlement etc. from causing a financial crisis. They act rather like the Fed. Reserve and the Congress with the TARP payments. But nothing of that seems to have trickled down in the real world, and it is unlikely to do so in AM
I doubt the series will actually have as much time pass in universe, as would be necessary, to render Vetinari physically or mentally incapable of doing the job. As for getting forcefully removed he seems too skilled a manipulator to have that happen unless the person doing it is Carrot but he's uninterested. All this is merely speculating on what Moist's final destination will be. There's got to be job that he'll never get bored of as it'll provide never ending thrills. Looking at AM's history the job of Patrician is anything but a peaceful one.
I originally had posted here a 10,000-word response to SWreader's totally bollocks statement about AM not having a middle class (Hello, Harry King, William De Worde & The Times, Madame and Pepe, Ironcrust, Gimlet, etc.), but now that I see that Making Money is the topic for next month's discussion, I will hold off until then.
J-I-B
statement about AM not having a middle class (Hello, Harry King, William De Worde & The Times, Madame and Pepe, Ironcrust, Gimlet, etc.), but now that I see that Making Money is the topic for next month's discussion, I will hold off until then. J-I-B
