My life, my death, my choice...

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Jul 27, 2008
19,782
3,400
Stirlingshire, Scotland
#21
Batty said:
The speech was brilliant!
Terry was obviously trying not to cry (at times) and Tony Robinson did an excellent job.
I did wonder where you were, Dug! I wasn't expecting to see Nigel Planer or Jeremy Irons in the audience.

I'm so pleased I saw the lecture, though. Well Done, to all concerned!
Batty quite a few of us went to the pub later to meet up with the broken drummers monthly meet in Paddington.
 

Penfold

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Dec 29, 2009
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#22
I had to wait until I got home from work this morning and was really looking forward to see the lecture only to discover to my irritation that the timer had managed to cut off the end of the program
so thanks for the link Tony. :) It turns out that I didn't miss quite as much as I had feared. :laugh:

I thought it was absolutely brilliant, well thought out and reasoned with acknowledgements to both sides of the argument. A big thank-you and well-done as well for Tony Robinson who did real justice to Terry's speech.

By the way, welcome to the forum Jimmaclean
 
Feb 2, 2010
1
1,650
Cumbria
#23
A human right?

For me, the key point in the lecture was that the current Terry Pratchett wanted to take 'power of attorney' over the Terry Pratchett of the future, when he might no longer have the faculties to control his destiny.
I think that I should be able to draw up a legal document with a solicitor, while I am still of sound mind, which stipulates that I should be assisted to die when certain conditions are met. For me this would be when I don't know where I am and I don't recognise my family, but others might have different criteria.
If a doctor certifies that I meet those conditions, my solicitor should be able to apply for a court order authorising a willing doctor to administer a lethal drug.
The safeguards here seem complete, a solicitor to represent my interests in the drawing up of the document, a doctor to certify that the conditions exist to trigger my request to die, and a court (or a Coroner's tribunal) to ensure due process.
Why not?
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,966
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#24
Hi peterbarnes and welcome! :)

Or how about a legal document that says 'withhold medical treatment if I am unable to communicate'?

If me heart stops beating, for example, you should be able to have a legal document that you carry around that says 'do not resuscitate me'.

These are called Living Wills and while they fall a little short of what Terry is talking about, they are certainly close.
 

Penfold

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Dec 29, 2009
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#25
Welcome to the Forum peterbarnes :)

Tonyblack said:
Or how about a legal document that says 'withhold medical treatment if I am unable to communicate'?

If me heart stops beating, for example, you should be able to have a legal document that you carry around that says 'do not resuscitate me'.
The doctors and surgeons at the hopital actually said they would not try to resucitate me if I could not breathe unassisted when they switched off my life support machine. My family agreed with this decision as it was expected that I would be suffering from severe brain damage. If the doctors had been unable to make this choice my 70 year old mother would have been forced into looking after me, a brain dead invalid staring into space day after day for the rest of his (un)natural life. That thought alone absolutely terrifies me, let alone being extremely hard on her.
 

Batty

Sergeant
Feb 17, 2009
4,154
2,600
East Anglia
#26
Tonyblack said:
These are called Living Wills and while they fall a little short of what Terry is talking about, they are certainly close.
January last year I was having a heart operation at Basildon hospital. Every patient was asked to sign the admission papers etc., which included a document that asked if the patient had a Living Will?
One elderly lady asked the nurse what a Living Will was, only to be told by the nurse that it was just a will, and if she had a will then she should sign it.
The lady duly did as advised.
 
Jan 1, 2010
1,114
2,600
#27
Batty said:
Tonyblack said:
These are called Living Wills and while they fall a little short of what Terry is talking about, they are certainly close.
January last year I was having a heart operation at Basildon hospital. Every patient was asked to sign the admission papers etc., which included a document that asked if the patient had a Living Will?
One elderly lady asked the nurse what a Living Will was, only to be told by the nurse that it was just a will, and if she had a will then she should sign it.
The lady duly did as advised.
:eek:
 
Apr 29, 2009
11,929
2,525
London
#28
Dammit.

I forgot it was on.

Am currently trying to watch it on iPlayer, but because of my internet connection (a dongle), it keeps "buffering".

I've sent a message to a workmate and asked if he can download it to a memory stick for me.

God bless you, Terry.
 

Jan Van Quirm

Sergeant-at-Arms
Nov 7, 2008
8,524
2,800
Dunheved, Kernow
www.janhawke.me.uk
#29
Tony said:
... Or how about a legal document that says 'withhold medical treatment if I am unable to communicate'?

If me heart stops beating, for example, you should be able to have a legal document that you carry around that says 'do not resuscitate me'.

These are called Living Wills and while they fall a little short of what Terry is talking about, they are certainly close.
'Unable to communicate' probably wouldn't go far enough as it needs to specify/define permanency for one thing. My father, when he went into the hospice to be assessed for home nursing had a 'no resuscitation' form to sign and mum had to countersign it as next of kin - how easy was that? Just an additional sentence on the usual consents when anyone undergoes surgery. There are degrees of consciousness to be considered as with Penfold where people are on life support, but even there we have potential for the nay-sayers to start clamouring because now there can be medically-induced comas for instance, which might/can be abused. As Terry has put it - this isn't compulsory, but it does have to be self-elective and there does need to be regulations in place to ensure that everyone, including the medical practititioners, are protected from the law itself, as well as from the unscrupulous people that are around and prey on those who cannot look out for themselves.

In that respect Terry did 'gloss' a little. The reason for the edginess over assisted death as a right, is because the solitary elderly especially are vulnerable to the Harold Shipmans of this world and only a few days/weeks back there was yet another care home manager in court over alleged fatal doses of medication where there was financial gain. There have to be clear safeguards in place for this to work.

I was mulling over the Tribunal option that Terry's offering to guinea pig in here already and I really do think that this option would make the process far too laborious and complex. So why not look at it from the other end of the life-span. Yes, I'm talking abortion and really it's the same argument - could not your choice of how you die be treated in a similar manner to someone's right to curtail a life growing inside them? Slight difference of course. A woman chooses to terminate her child under certain conditions and justifications - in this country she has to have two doctors certify that carrying that child to term will seriously impair her health in some way. Why shouldn't you be able to do the same when you have lived long enough and need to end it? By all means have a lawyer added to the equation if that is seen as a safeguard, but for gods sake don't make people coldly apply for it when there might still be years of quality of life left to them - or simply because they might change their minds at a later date and would want to be resusicitated or whatever. It can't be locked down so finitely and when accidents come into the equation with younger, completely healthy people then what happens there where there's literally no time to think about it or it's impossible to ask them?

Maybe combining something that encompasses the abortion criteria, surgery consents and organ donation that can be registered as a matter of course, for every case where someone is diagnosed with a life-detracting disease/illness/'condition'(because dementia/Alzheimers doesn't kill you physically :rolleyes: ). People could be given the opportunity to tick a box effectively, that says they are open to the assisted death option, if/when they deteriorate and then, when the time comes, they can say 'go ahead I'm ready now', or, if they're not able to say that, their wish is registered and they can get assessed medically (and legally if needed). Next of kin would probably need to be considered in this perhaps but at least it's all there on record and something less to worry about? :(
 

Jan Van Quirm

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Nov 7, 2008
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#30
Phoenix said:
Just to clarify a point- Kay pleaded guilty to assisting suicide, but denied and was acquitted of attempted murder. So she did help Lynn to die, but it was at Lynn's request.
Whoops! :oops: Thanks for correcting that Phoenix - I had seen that in the reports then promptly got confused and couldn't recall if it was a murder or manslaughter charge :rolleyes:
 
Feb 3, 2010
52
2,150
Glasgow
#31
What I found very interesting is that the Tribunal system that Terry cited as a possible method of assessing each case does exist but for a different purpose.

A few years ago the Mental Health Tribunals were created in Scotland to handle the majority of matters that were previously handled by the Courts. Previously there was a Sheriff (Judge or Magistrate south of the border) that made the desision. Now it is a panel which includes of a Doctor specialising in the mental health field, a solicitor of long standing with good knowlege of mental health law.

This principal could be easily adapted for the purpose outlined by Terry. However it is not the method, it is the moral issue.

Now I am all for assisted death for those with illnesses such as Terry and indeed his late father. Give someone control over their own lives. We are born, we grow up, we make choices that determine the course of our future, we can choose to alter the course of our future. There are always things that we cannot control or choose but I can and do believe that we have the right to choose the manner of our dying when the manner of our living has been taken out of our hands. We should be able to alter the course of our future when faced with such horror as those with these illnesses are.

I would like to think that the general public would back such a bill were it to be put forward but I do believe that, though many will support it, there would be such a backlash from it that the political parties would not wish to address such a controversial issue and would shy away from dealing with fobbing it off onto the next pack of cowards. Am I wrong to have so little faith in my fellow countrymen?

Pubicity and enlightenment is the key and Terry has embraced this wholeheartedly. All I can say is that we are all behind you and will support you in whatever way we can, big or small.

M x
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,966
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#32
Welcome to the site Mysticsypher. :)

It's certainly a controversial subject and it's going to take a brave MP who puts it forward. But as terry said, the time is right to talk about it. It's no good ignoring it as that solves nothing.
 

Penfold

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Dec 29, 2009
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#33
Welcome to the site from me as well Mysticsypher. :)
Tonyblack said:
It's certainly a controversial subject and it's going to take a brave MP who puts it forward. But as terry said, the time is right to talk about it. It's no good ignoring it as that solves nothing.
What Terry has been great at doing is the bringing of a previously taboo subject for discussion into the public realm rather than behind the closed doors of the BMA and other pro/anti organisations. One of the best ways for laws to be made/changed is often through the groundswell of support from the voting public. So I fully welcome the debate and might even watch Westminster Today should some MP actually have the nerve to introduce a Private Members Bill.
 
Feb 3, 2010
52
2,150
Glasgow
#34
Thank you for the warm welcome. Feel at home already! :laugh:

I think that you might have already gathered that I live in Scotland but have any of you seen what has been happening with one of our MSP's Margo MacDonald? She has been campaining for sometime for assisted deaths to be introduced. In January she put forward the End of Life Assistance (Scotland) Bill. Still to have a desision on it. Here is a link to her site which also contains links to the bill that has been proposed.

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/bi ... /index.htm

M x
 
Jan 19, 2010
54
2,150
Birmingham, UK
#37
Tonyblack said:
Hi peterbarnes and welcome! :)

Or how about a legal document that says 'withhold medical treatment if I am unable to communicate'?

If me heart stops beating, for example, you should be able to have a legal document that you carry around that says 'do not resuscitate me'.

These are called Living Wills and while they fall a little short of what Terry is talking about, they are certainly close.
There is already a 'do not resuscitate' option available.
 
Jan 19, 2010
54
2,150
Birmingham, UK
#38
Re: A human right?

peterbarnes said:
For me, the key point in the lecture was that the current Terry Pratchett wanted to take 'power of attorney' over the Terry Pratchett of the future, when he might no longer have the faculties to control his destiny.
I think that I should be able to draw up a legal document with a solicitor, while I am still of sound mind, which stipulates that I should be assisted to die when certain conditions are met. For me this would be when I don't know where I am and I don't recognise my family, but others might have different criteria.
If a doctor certifies that I meet those conditions, my solicitor should be able to apply for a court order authorising a willing doctor to administer a lethal drug.
The safeguards here seem complete, a solicitor to represent my interests in the drawing up of the document, a doctor to certify that the conditions exist to trigger my request to die, and a court (or a Coroner's tribunal) to ensure due process.
Why not?
I agree. And the lecture was terrific. Tony Robinson did a great job - though I have to say I would much have preferred Terry Pratchett to have done it himself. I don't think it was so much that he couldn't have read it - even though he has problems with his vision due to the disease - I think it possible he may have been afraid of breaking down and crying in the middle of it.
It made me cry. Yes, he made me llaugh as well. But mostly I just wanted to give him a big hug and make him better...
 

janet

Sergeant
Nov 14, 2009
3,082
2,100
North East England
#39
The main body of the lecture, delivered by Tony Robinson, brought obvious approval, on my TV screen at least (and I recorded it as it was past my bedtime when it aired) from Terry.
As Terry said, his illness is so covert as to make it difficult for the rest of us to appreciate that it is there at all so we must all defer to his decision for the main part of the lecture to be delivered by Tony, who did a fantastic job.
I was moved to tears at more than one point and, it appears that the audience there were similarly moved. One lady appeared on camera with a hanky crumpled in her fist and that would have been me too.
Dying is inevitable and sometimes it happens too quickly for anyone to control. I want my death , if it isn't of the quick, unexpected variety, to be based on my quality of life just as I have had the power to judge at the concluding days of several of the animals in my care. I've had to make the terribly painful decision to opt for a dignified and relatively painless end for some of my beloved critters when their eyes were telling me to help them get away from their pain and suffering. Why should it be different for me? If someone who loves me is there to hold my hand at the end I'll be ready to go.
 

kakaze

Lance-Corporal
Jun 3, 2009
488
1,775
#40
Except for cases of complete dependency (quadrapligia, coma, advanced dementia) I've never really understood how the legality of assisted suicide could really be an issue.

There are so many ways to kill yourself, from the simple (sitting in a running car with the garage door shut) to the more subtle and complex (extracting the nicotine out of cigarettes to give yourself a heart attack), and many of them are so easy to do, that it'd be impossible to prevent someone who actually wanted to die from using one.

There're even websites devoted to teaching people how (and, in Japan, introduce suicidal people so they can die together)!

In short; if I ever seriously decided to end my life, no government policy would stop me.
 

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