Questions and thoughts re: the Harry Potter books

[RathDarkblade]

I'd like to offer my apologies in advance if the coming post offends you. All I can say in defence is that it is simply my own personal opinion of the Harry Potter books, and that I've only read the first two.

Anyway... naturally, I'm a long-time fan of Terry's books (obviously. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't). But years ago, my sister recommended the HP books to me.

I tried the first two and... not to put to fine a point on it... wasn't too impressed. They reminded me too much of the Enid Blyton books I read when I was a kid. The language, also, supported my suspicions: whenever someone was angry, embarrassed or confused, they went red. Harry went red. Hermione went red. Weasley went red. So-and-so went red. Enough! Any more red and they'd become a STOP sign.

I also didn't find the climactic scenes - the battle with the 'ultimate adversaries' - very memorable or thrilling. I don't even remember anything about those scenes, which speaks volumes. Oddly, the only thing I found interesting about the early books were the Dursleys (whose loathsome behaviour reminded me particularly of Roald Dahl's 'villains' in "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory", particularly Augustus Gloop) and the 'shopping' scenes, i.e. Harry buying things to take to Hogwarts with him. The rest... meh. *shrug*

Are the later books any better? I gave up after book 2. *shrug*
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Moving on to another topic, I've read that various people around the world have written their own versions of Harry Potter. (The link has pictures of the dust jackets and short summaries of the plots, or lack thereof). Most of these are hilariously bad; only one or two seem genuinely funny. But now here's my question: are these allowable under parody/satire, or are they - well - basically, illegal?

I'm asking this because I myself have been writing for over 20 years (and publishing online now and then), and my concern is, obviously, plagiarism. Some of my work - well... I wouldn't be too concerned about, but much of it has taken me years to research, and I'd be horrified if someone stole it and made money out of it. As I see it, plagiarism is theft - it's dishonest and despicable. So I'm surprised that JK allows it - or does she? Wouldn't her lawyers try to stop or suppress these cheap HP knock-offs? Can they even do it, given that - in China, particularly - the laws on plagiarism seem rather weak and ineffectual?

What's your view, hmm?

 

[Mary Skater]

I quite enjoy the Potter series, and re-read the books maybe once every 2 or 3 years. I've seen it suggested that the odd-numbered books are better than the even-numbered ones, and to some extent I'd go along with that. I'd certainly place book 2 as the weakest of the series. I can perfectly understand that this type of fantasy isn't for everybody. There are some bits I don't like and will skip, now I know how the stories go, but I'm by no means inclined to give up on the books as a whole. There are some glitches that I quite enjoy recognising (such as the snake that winked; snakes don't have eyelids). But then I was a Hermione-type know-it-all in school.

Plagiarism: it happens, and I think it could only be stopped if publishers used their financial clout to sue the perpetrators. But the question is whether the cost involved would justify any benefit that might be gained. My only venture into self-publishing was a novel based on "Phantom of the Opera." It started out as a shorter story very much rooted in the Lloyd Webber musical, but when I decided to publish, I edited it so that the basic material was the Leroux novel - which is now out of copyright. However, it doesn't take much browsing of the Phantom novels on Amazon to recognise that the musical is the source for many of them. Theoretically, I suppose, the Really Useful Group could crack down on these and ban them from publication, but I expect it's not worth the effort.

If a book/ film/ TV series generates a wide fan-readership, then I suppose plagiarism is inevitable, more often as a way people want to extend their enjoyment rather than to make money. Have you ever looked at Fanfiction.Net? Any genre you like is featured there (including Potter and Discworld) not to make money but to participate in the dreams. (And, with no editorial control, the quality of what's posted can be abysmal.) If you want to protect your best work from being plagiarised, I'm afraid the only route I can suggest is to focus on subjects that don't have mass appeal. And you might try including a few markers such as character names which you have made up and which don't occur anywhere else. One would think that a plagiarist would change such obvious wording... but if Donald Trump's staff writers can make such blatant errors, why should other rip-off artists be any better? :icon-twisted:

Mary

 

[raisindot]

Fanfiction is the refuge of the creatively bankrupt. We humans have such amazing brains capable of such brilliant leaps of imagination, that to use the mental power to create derivative, fourth-rate knock offs of other author's original material is a sad commentary on the decline of literacy.

Remember, too, that when left unchecked, fourth-rate fanfiction can involve into fifth-rate bestselling garbage like the Fifty Shades of Grey series.

 

[Mary Skater]

Fanfiction is the refuge of the creatively bankrupt. We humans have such amazing brains capable of such brilliant leaps of imagination, that to use the mental power to create derivative, fourth-rate knock offs of other author's original material is a sad commentary on the decline of literacy.

Maybe I'm creatively bankrupt. I've never been successful at creating completely new fiction. (I have tried.) But I've written fanfiction that has given pleasure to me and to other people. Since that's the best that I can do, I'd rather do that than not write at all.

"Fourth-rate knock offs." You seem to acknowledge that first, second and third rate knock offs exist. I pay attention to plot coherence, character integrity, spelling and grammar. I've seen plenty of fanfiction stories that don't, and I don't lump my work with those, although other people may.

I don't agree with anyone making profit from someone else's originality. (With the caveat that anything out of copyright is fair game. Look at the plethora of Sherlock Holmes pastiches.) But in an amateur context, with no money changing hands, can't fanfiction be regarded as "the sincerest form of flattery" for the original author?

 

[Tonyblack]

I read all the Harry Potter books and really enjoyed them. However, I've never really been tempted to read them again. I may do at some stage. There are a lot of problems in the story-line and I've had to suspend my credulity in ways that I've never had to with Terry's books.

 

[=Tamar]

I read and reread the first HP book, trying to figure out why it grabbed me. I never did come to a firm conclusion, though I identified several elements. Unfortunately, the author's obsessive secrecy meant that the books were not edited well, and they really needed editing. I joined many others in discussing them in excruciating detail in an online forum. Over the years we speculated on how it might work out; I think we came up with much better plot resolutions, but then, we had some very creative people in the group. No, it wasn't a fanfic group - we didn't write them, we just offered speculative outlines. By the time the last book was published of that ten-year first novel (it really is all one first novel), we were mostly disappointed. I have not bothered with the followups.
With regard to fanfic in general: Most of it is terrible when judged against professional writers. However, it gives what the little magazines used to give: a place to be bad while you learn how to be better. Sometimes there are some wonderful stories that could never be written otherwise, such as crossovers that work beautifully based on works whose authors are long dead. Sometimes a fanfic will work as perfect parody, which is legitimate - as I understand it, a parody must comment on the original, not merely grab a few elements and change everything else without any reference. For example, a story written set in Diagon Alley that doesn't make any critical comment on the original would be plagiarizing the names and location, while a story that pointed out something critically lacking in the original would be legitimate parody. It seems that parody has to be badly written to be obvious enough for the lawyers.
Rarely, fanfic is better than the original.

 

[Penfold]

I tried reading the books and gave up after the first two. For me, they fall into the rare category of being better on the big screen than on the written page (although Stephen King's works also belong there, imo).

 

[Quatermass]

Fanfiction is the refuge of the creatively bankrupt. We humans have such amazing brains capable of such brilliant leaps of imagination, that to use the mental power to create derivative, fourth-rate knock offs of other author's original material is a sad commentary on the decline of literacy.

*glares*

And what of good fanfic?

Not to mention that, while Fifty Shades of Gray is what happens when crap fanfic gets published, the Vorkosigan Saga is what happens when fanfic gets turned into good stories.

 

[raisindot]

....For example, a story written set in Diagon Alley that doesn't make any critical comment on the original would be plagiarizing the names and location, while a story that pointed out something critically lacking in the original would be legitimate parody. It seems that parody has to be badly written to be obvious enough for the lawyers.
Rarely, fanfic is better than the original.

No, that would not be plagiarism. Plagiarism is the intentional reuse of unique actual words or phrases from a given piece without proper attribution of the original source. Creating an unauthorized "original" story set in Diagon alley would be copyright violation, as all fanfiction is. It would only plagiarism is said story copied actual events and/or dialogue from the original book.

 

[=Tamar]

That's what it ought to be, and was last time I looked, but during the last ten years the corporate monsters and other lawsuits have changed the definition. Lawsuits are brought - and won - based on detailed similarity of plot. Nowadays, kids are told they are plagiarizing if they paraphrase an encyclopedia fact instead of quoting directly. The word has been expanded to where it is used a club to beat anyone who writes anything. How the heck can a kid write a school essay without paraphrasing something? If they say anything substantial, it's going to sound like a paraphrase of something even if they never read the other article. Do they have to have done the raw research themselves? No wonder kids get depressed! This isn't just at ten-year-old level, it's happening to college students and retroactively to professors. One court case was decided to be "not plagiarism" because a line that consisted of the word "no" repeated six times was one "no" longer than the other guy's line that had "no" repeated five times. But it was considered worth the effort and cost and court time to sue over it!

 

[raisindot]

I think the rise of the heightened scrutiny over accusations of plagiarism are the result of two factors:

1. The widespread availability of online texts that make it easier for people to copy language and for reviewers to identify stolen sources; and

2. The overall decline in researching skills and writing ability in general.

My kids (both college students now) grow up in the online age, where the ability to create PowerPoint presentations was emphasized over the ability to write, well, anything well. They were not taught how to critically evaluate research sources and to beyond Wikipedia to research things. They weren't encouraged to develop writing skills; instead they were told to 1) get the research following some kind of rubric, 2) get the basic facts done, and 3) use online bibliography creators and other shortcuts without understanding the rationale for these things.

For the vast majority of people, writing has become a lost art. I've been in the business world for several decades, and the types of reports and documents created by just about everyone--not just those under 30--are absolutely horrifying in terms of how poorly they are rewritten.

 

[Quatermass]

raisindot, I'd like to refute your stance on fanfic for a few reasons.

1. As I noted above, there are times when fanfic can become a good piece of work. The Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold grew out of her Star Trek fanfics involving a romance between a Federation officer and a Klingon. Several Big Finish Doctor Who audio stories had their origins in unofficial fan stories. There's Wicked by Gregory Maguire...and for crying out loud, what is Dante Aligheri's Divine Comedy but a self-insert fanfic where Dante meets historical and religious figures while being chummy with one of his idols? Oh, and Don Quixote is a parody fanfic of all those chivalry novels.

2. There are a lot of superlative fanfics out there, amongst the trash. If I had to pick out one single Harry Potter story above all others, it would be The Best Revenge by the late Arsinoe de Blassenville, followed closely by the gloriously hilarious Saying No by Bobmin356.

3. Quite frankly, raisindot, I have to ask, are you a writer? Do you know what it's like to write? If not, then don't judge writers who do fanfic on the side, especially when they've hit a roadblock with their actual fiction.

4. Fanfics can actually interest people in franchises they may not actually be interested in normally. I may never have read Naruto or become interested in Fate/Stay Night, or Fullmetal Alchemist without fanfic. It helps when fanfic writers also tell their readers to support the official releases, in the same way many Abridged Series makers do.

5. Writers get ideas from everywhere, and you'd be amazed at what they can get away with. As a certain Ben Aaronovitch wrote, "Talent borrows and genius steals, New Adventures writers get it off the back of a lorry, no questions asked." He was talking about basically aping the Culture for his Doctor Who novel The Also People. Authors are magpies, taking concepts from anything and everything. This is less about fanfic and more about writing in general, though.

 

[Sister Jennifer]

I tried reading the books and gave up after the first two. For me, they fall into the rare category of being better on the big screen than on the written page (although Stephen King's works also belong there, imo).

I got to book three which I have to say I really liked. I think the same as you, the movies are very good and that makes me incredibly unmotivated to read any more. My 'to read' list is always too bloody long and even though I don't mind reading children/young adult books there are other things that interest me. I never say never and I may finish the series one day. What I like the most about the HP series is that it got non-reading children and adults reading. To me that makes JK Rowling an amazing author and all-round human being.

I should say, of my three children, one has read the series but she is the sort of reader that would make a bookworm pack it all in. One has read the same as me and my youngest read the first book with me but hasn't read any more, though he is a good reader. He's not long read the Red Dwarf books and loved them which makes my heart sing.

I also agree with you on quite a few Stephen King adaptions but I differ in that I will always read his books.

I don't think JK Rowling is like Enid Blyton. It's just the Englishness of the children which are similar. Kids tales of adventure have always been around.

Could you imagine, Five Get Into Trouble Making Polyjuice Potion... Again.

I know less than an ant on a sugar high about fanfic.

 

[Mary Skater]

What I like the most about the HP series is that it got non-reading children and adults reading.

I completely agree with that.

 

[raisindot]

raisindot, I'd like to refute your stance on fanfic for a few reasons.

1. As I noted above, there are times when fanfic can become a good piece of work. The Vorkosigan Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold grew out of her Star Trek fanfics involving a romance between a Federation officer and a Klingon. Several Big Finish Doctor Who audio stories had their origins in unofficial fan stories. There's Wicked by Gregory Maguire...and for crying out loud, what is Dante Aligheri's Divine Comedy but a self-insert fanfic where Dante meets historical and religious figures while being chummy with one of his idols? Oh, and Don Quixote is a parody fanfic of all those chivalry novels.

2. There are a lot of superlative fanfics out there, amongst the trash. If I had to pick out one single Harry Potter story above all others, it would be The Best Revenge by the late Arsinoe de Blassenville, followed closely by the gloriously hilarious Saying No by Bobmin356.

3. Quite frankly, raisindot, I have to ask, are you a writer? Do you know what it's like to write? If not, then don't judge writers who do fanfic on the side, especially when they've hit a roadblock with their actual fiction.

4. Fanfics can actually interest people in franchises they may not actually be interested in normally. I may never have read Naruto or become interested in Fate/Stay Night, or Fullmetal Alchemist without fanfic. It helps when fanfic writers also tell their readers to support the official releases, in the same way many Abridged Series makers do.

5. Writers get ideas from everywhere, and you'd be amazed at what they can get away with. As a certain Ben Aaronovitch wrote, "Talent borrows and genius steals, New Adventures writers get it off the back of a lorry, no questions asked." He was talking about basically aping the Culture for his Doctor Who novel The Also People. Authors are magpies, taking concepts from anything and everything. This is less about fanfic and more about writing in general, though.

Q, I will answer your questions/points one by one.


1. Whether fanfiction is "good" or not doesn't negate my central argument--that writing fanfiction (by that definition, I mean unauthorized works based on existing characters or concepts) displays an amazing lack of ability to create anything original.

2. Same comment as #1. Doesn't matter if it's "good" or not--it's still piggybacking on someone else's sweat and labor, rather than creating something original. If you're such a good writer, why not channel that energy into creating something new that represents your own vision?

3. Yes, Q, I am a writer. Not only does the advertising and business-related writing I do bring in a large chunks of my income, but I have also published several dozen short stories (both on a paid and non-paid basis) and have (self) published a novel, The Wellbaby, written under my pseudonym, Zack Grenville, and am now working on my second novel, which I hope to get published sometime within my lifetime.

4. If a person needs a fanfic to get interested in a copyrighted enterprise, that to me speaks more about the inferiority of the original enterprise than it does about the value of fanfiction.

5. It is true that just about every plot or storyline used today has been used somewhere else in different form. But there's a hell of a big difference between recycling a basic plotline (Boy meets girl, they date, fall in love, he cheats, they break up, she gets kidnapped by terrorists, he rescues her, she forgives him) and actually reusing, without authorization and in violation of copyrights, characters, settings and themes that someone else has created.

Two cases in point. One, I do believe that when Pterry started writing Discworld books he intentionally was trying to be the Douglas Adams of fantasy. You can see Adams' narrative footprint and literary tricks all over the first two DW books. He had never gone beyond this style he probably would have been forgotten. It's only when he got to Mort and started to bring in deeper themes and character development that the series truly evolved into something original.

Second, as others have said, parody, to me, is an acceptable form of creative appropriation. For example, one of my most successful short stories (published in three separate publications, two of which were paid), was a parody of James Herriott's All Creatures Great and Small, with the protagonist being a country door to door PC technician fixing the warped hard drives and smashed monitors on flinty Yorshire small businessmen.

 

[Quatermass]

raisindot...frankly, I think you're being elitist and snobbish. And while that's the pot calling the kettle black, you also didn't answer two of the questions. I am a struggling writer, I am trying to get normal fiction out. But I also write fanfic, simply because I need my brain to be occupied when I can't write normal fiction. And guess what? At least two of my fanfics have been recommended on TV Tropes. One of my fanfic series even has its own tropes page.

In every one of my fanfics, I tell my readers to support the official release. And while Orson Scott Card once hated fanfic, he's come round, saying it's free advertising for his own works. And your remarks towards the franchises I mentioned are completely uncalled for.

I don't write fanfics for nefarious purposes, or to become great literature. I write them for the entertainment of others, and to give my creativity something to do when I've hit a roadblock in my novel writing. So get off your bloody high horse, raisindot, and stop being so judgemental.

 

[raisindot]

raisindot...frankly, I think you're being elitist and snobbish. And while that's the pot calling the kettle black, you also didn't answer two of the questions. I am a struggling writer, I am trying to get normal fiction out. But I also write fanfic, simply because I need my brain to be occupied when I can't write normal fiction. And guess what? At least two of my fanfics have been recommended on TV Tropes. One of my fanfic series even has its own tropes page.

In every one of my fanfics, I tell my readers to support the official release. And while Orson Scott Card once hated fanfic, he's come round, saying it's free advertising for his own works. And your remarks towards the franchises I mentioned are completely uncalled for.

I don't write fanfics for nefarious purposes, or to become great literature. I write them for the entertainment of others, and to give my creativity something to do when I've hit a roadblock in my novel writing. So get off your bloody high horse, raisindot, and stop being so judgemental.

Q, no one (including me) ever said that people write fanfic for nefarious purposes. But, essentially, you've validated my central argument--that fanfiction is primarily written by those who are unable (for whatever reason) to produce finished works of originality not tired to existing franchises. To me, whether fanfiction is praised or not in no way invalidates my central argument..

As one writer to another, you might ask yourself what is keeping you from being able to produce original works. Fight your impulse to ride on someone else's creative bandwagon and focus your creative energies into developing something completely original. Believe me, I've been tempted many times to write a DW-inspired fanction story, but I will never do it because, as someone whe has been the victim of copyright violation, I cannot, in all conscience, travel along a similar path to commit that offense against another author.

 

[Quatermass]

What's keeping me from producing original works? F****** writer's block, thank you very much. I have the ideas, I just can't put them together, in spite of my best efforts. And I am trying my best. There's one story in particular I am stuck on, and I can't work on any of my other (non-fanfic) works until I get it out (though I managed to get some stories done for a recent writing competition done by Big Finish). So you have no right to denigrate or demean my efforts as a writer whatsoever. I'm addicted to writing, I even suffer from withdrawals, and if I have to use fanfic-writing as the writing equivalent of methadone, then do not judge me. Okay? Otherwise, we're done here.

 

[raisindot]

Q, you started this whole thing by calling me elite and snobbish. You're just as judgmental as me, so get of your own high horse.

I'm sorry about your writer's block. Been there many times. If writing fanfiction gives you an outlet, go ahead and do it. But don't expect me to think that yours (or anyone else's) fanctionwriting represents anything other than derivative riding on the coattails of someone else's original proof of concept. Of course, you and anyone else should feel free to disagree. Fine with me. 'TWould be a sad world indeed if with our huge advanced brains everyone thought the same way.

 

[Quatermass]

Let's get the topic back on track, for the sanity of all parties involved.

The earlier Harry Potter books are more designed for kids. In a way, you're meant to grow up with Harry. I personally think books 3 and 4 to be the height of the series...and book 5 to be the nadir. The Order of the Phoenix almost turned me off the series for good. I enjoyed the last two books when I finally got around to reading them, though I will acknowledge some of the issues with them, mostly of characterisation. I think it's those three books, and what light they shed on Dumbledore, that has led to a proliferation of what is known as Dumbledore-bashing in fanfic (that is, making him into a villainous or semi-villainous character). While I found JK Rowling's attempts to get herself out of her self-written mess a bit convoluted, I still think they worked, and I still enjoyed the stories anyway. No story or author is perfect, they can merely approach perfection.

Anyway, there are far worse popular books out there. I should know, I've read them. Like Twilight (though that's not appalling, just mediocre and boring as hell). Or Atlas Shrugged (where the heroes are almost as repulsive as the villains for the most part: you want a better demonstration of Objectivism? Play BioShock).