SPOILERS Snuff *Warning Spoilers*

[Anonymous]

No worries, I am a she.

And frankly now, folks.

I still love and adore Discworld and Sir Terry's writing and style in general. Especially looking at all the things he has basically taught me about writing.

Seeing works like UA now and seeing what I saw of Snuff hurts. It really hurts and makes me sad.

And I am not someone who will just nod and smile a false smile, saying all is well when it isn't.
I know he is ill. But when I think that something reads like bad fanfiction written by someone who knows Discworld only from hear-say, I will say it.
If I am bothered by an element that to me seems to be there soley for controversy, cheap laughs or whatever, I'll say it.

I saw enough of him in additon to know he still can plan and be extremely witty and skilled with words. In situation where there was no chance of things been rehearsed or something.
And there still ARE glimpse and bits in the books.
Heck, I LOVED the part of Snuff Rob read out in, what was it?, Sydney i think. The bit that starts with -and Vimes died-
Soley because the scene played in my head as a monty python style animation.
That is something ONLY Discworld ever managed.

But in the grand total, these glimpses are drowned by something so... not-discworld that it pains me.
I know I said all of this before somewhere, but I stand to my point.

Pratchett has taught me to think about the things I read, things I write. I don't know how good my writings are to others, but I know through what his writings taught me I am far from the bad prose I have produced before discovering Discworld.

Seeing works that read like what I made back before that time, as said before, hurts and makes me sad, cause it feels like losing a dear friend.

 

[Tonyblack]

Wait, are you saying I'm a bad person for not liking it?

No one is saying you're a bad person for not liking it. And no one should criticize anyone who is waiting until they get a library copy (Hell, I did--it's only luck that I got both my library copy and my sharply discounted personal copy the same day).

But what I'm personally saying is you're coming off like a fool for continuously criticizing a book that you yourself haven't read and go out of your way to say you won't read. Okay, we know you don't want to read it. FINE! Then why not just leave this topic entirely and comment on books you have read? Or suck it up, borrow Snuff from a library, read it and the come back and feel free to criticize away?

I'm in no rush to read Pyramids again and I haven't read any of Pterry's non-DW books other than Nation (which I didn't like all that much) and Good Omens (which is great). So, I'm not going to go into a Truckers or Johnny and the Dead dor Pyramids iscussion and start dissing them because of a short excerpt I may read or others' reviews. I'm not qualified to make such an assumption.

Meeps - from where I'm sitting it does come across like you are picking at a sore wound. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to decide not to read the book.

It just seems to me that you've now got to the point where you are determined not to like the book and nothing that anyone says is going to change that. So constantly visiting this thread seems a bit pointless. We all understand that you aren't going to change your mind.

It's hard for some of us to understand your decision. After all - it's new Pratchett and, although we may moan about it, it is a much anticipated event on this board.

But it is 'your' decision. We 'get' it that you won't read the book, even if it seems a little strange to some of us.

 

[Anonymous]

Right now I am feeling as if people try to force me to read AND like that book, soley on the account of it being Discworld.
And like it even more because it's not only Discworld, but it's Vimes.
See my above answer for my deeper reasons.

I didn't meant to offend anyone, but I do feel some people try to force an opinion on me.

 

[Tonyblack]

Right now I am feeling as if people try to force me to read AND like that book, soley on the account of it being Discworld.
And like it even more because it's not only Discworld, but it's Vimes.
See my above answer for my deeper reasons.

I didn't meant to offend anyone, but I do feel some people try to force an opinion on me.

Than stick to your guns and don't read it.

But you have asked us for our opinions and to clarify certain things about the book - which we have tried to do. My original thought was that you wanted to be persuaded to read the book, but it's clear that you have made you mind up already. So apologies for trying to help.

 

[Anonymous]

Right now I am feeling as if people try to force me to read AND like that book, soley on the account of it being Discworld.
And like it even more because it's not only Discworld, but it's Vimes.
See my above answer for my deeper reasons.

I didn't meant to offend anyone, but I do feel some people try to force an opinion on me.

Than stick to your guns and don't read it.

But you have asked us for our opinions and to clarify certain things about the book - which we have tried to do. My original thought was that you wanted to be persuaded to read the book, but it's clear that you have made you mind up already. So apologies for trying to help.

Actually I haven't made up my mind. I might read it when it is in the library, but I certainly won't purchase it.
I'm really having a very bad feeling about it.
(I often plain suck at wording and are often very hotheaded, what leads to me saying stuff I actually don't mean. I apologise for that.)

 

[raisindot]

From what you're discussing now it sounds very much like the caste system - nothing to do with race so much as all to do with what the untouchables actually DID - which was mostly to do with 'unclean' industries in that they worked in abbatoirs, as butchers and tanners (making leather or fabric which involves both blood and urine) and also in the shit or night-soil removal business as it more delicately called during the British Raj in much the same way as Harry King is King of the Golden River...

AVAST, MORE SPOILERS BE AHEAD!

Jan, the caste thing occurred to me, too as I was reading it, but I don't think that this is really how the country inhabitants think of the goblins, mainly because even in India the untouchables are considered to be humans who possess basic rights. They may never have been allowed to rise above their station, but they were never systematically enslaved or massacred as a matter of public policy because of their caste.

In Snuff, the goblins aren't shunned because they collect and handle crap and garbage all day. After all, the gnolls in AM serve the same purpose, and while not liked, no one discriminately kills them.

Even in AM, goblins are treated better than they are in the countryside. Witness Nutt, who, while initially stuck making candles, at least got paid for this work. In Snuff, there are very articulate (and quite powerful, in their own way) goblins working for Harry King, even though they're not paid as much as human workers.

So, in the countryside of Snuff, it really is about racism. A better analogy than the caste system is African slavery. Europeans believed that black slaves were not really human, or possessing of intelligence or civilized or moral values. Thus, they could justify treating them as property and literally working them to death (the main reason why the slave trade went on so long was because the mortality rate of slaves working on plantations was astronomical, and thus a constant supply of new slaves was needed). Slaveowners were completely justified in raping and killing a slave, since it was their own property. Even if the aristocrats of Snuff don't actually "own" the goblins, they feel they do have the right of slaveowners to do whatever they want, because their own racism (or speciesism, actually) prevents them from believing that a goblin deserves the same rights as other sentient species.

With Discworld being relatively free of actual racism is it really that silly to find out that a species has to be bottom of the heap? Discworld is Roundworld after all - it just has different labels.

There is plenty of racism (and xenophobia) on Discworld. In Jingo, the AMers leveled racist attitudes toward the Klatchians and vice versa. Even Granny Weatherwax has inner prejudices against "foreigners."

But, for the large part, since the vast majority of the human population of DW seems to be white, yes, there's not a lot of "human against human" racism. It's all been replaced by speciesism, which is endemic. Until recently, the dwarves and trolls were treated as the goblins are in Snuff by the human population--as lower level lifeforms. It was only when these non-human groups began to prosper economically that they began to gain grudging respect.

But speciesm is still rampant on the DW. Snuff simply portrays a more virulent form of it.

 

[raisindot]

Right now I am feeling as if people try to force me to read AND like that book, soley on the account of it being Discworld.
And like it even more because it's not only Discworld, but it's Vimes.
See my above answer for my deeper reasons.

I didn't meant to offend anyone, but I do feel some people try to force an opinion on me.

LilMaibe, you're bringing this on yourself by constantly criticizing a book you haven't read. The nice thing about this forum is that it's not the typical fanboy place where if you criticize a work you're considered a traitor.

You can celebrate the fact that Pterry is still able to publish and at the same time criticize the book mericelessly when it comes out if you've read it. If you look at the UA Discussion thread you see a wide range of comments both positive and negative. Look at other books and you see the same thing. We're anything but zealots around here.

I look forward to every new DW book Pterry publishes, even though, with UA and now Snuff, I have personally come to the conclusion that Pterry's literary skills are in serious decline. People will disagree with me and that's perfectly fine--what's a literary forum if everyone thinks the same thing?

That said, I will continue to read any additional DW books (even another Moist book) he publishes, even if they continue to decline. That way I can at least feel justified in my criticisms. Because, I'm not giving Pterry a 'bye' for publishing subpar works. He's far too important of a writer to expect to his work to be treated with kid gloves, and whatever I say won't affect him in the least. There will come a time when he realizes he can no longer write books anymore, and that time will be very sad, indeed. But until that time comes, anything he puts out is fair game--for those who take the time to READ THE WORK.

 

[Anonymous]

Okay, can we agree I read it once my library gets it, but may still say I don't have a good feeling 'bout it?

 

[Ogg]

I would like to apologise if I caused offence as to my thinking that one should buy the book. Thank you.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Until recently, the dwarves and trolls were treated as the goblins are in Snuff by the human population--as lower level lifeforms. It was only when these non-human groups began to prosper economically that they began to gain grudging respect.

But speciesm is still rampant on the DW. Snuff simply portrays a more virulent form of it.

Yes extreme obviously - but trolls and dwarves were treated as lower lifeforms 'up until recently'? Really!

Trolls and Dwarves and Werewolves were in the Watch by Men at Arms weren't they? Chrysoprase (or someone quite like him) and the Stronginthearms were pretty much at liberty to join in and help burn down the Broken Drum as far back as CoM/LF weren't they? The dwarves were mending broomsticks for Granny way back in ER and Trolls taking part in MP, albeit as stuntmen - they were part of a social setup and not kept as possessions. They fitted into the social scenery more or less as they were capable of doing (given that Trolls are thicker at sea level). If you want a Roundworld comparison then how about the Italian, Jewish and Polish communities in the big cosmop cities of the USA in the last century? Were they treated as sub-human? They may not have been top of the tree but they weren't excluded or suppressed as such were they (like the Jews were in Germany and Russia yes, but that's why I'm using the US as the comparison )?

Goblins are indeed a recent addition to the Discworld Milieu for us, yes but try to make out that Trolls and Dwarves were completely ostracised socially, certainly in A-M is absolutely ridiculous. Your point about Gnolls is well made and they're certainly less well-regarded than Dwarves certainly, in the same way that Dwarves will in turn denigrate Trolls and vice versa. That's different to being treated as sub-sentient. Away from the cities they are powerful factions in their own right so even less true there. Terry simply hasn't written about goblins up until UA that's all and yes, boohoo they're treated abominably as slaves and sub-sentient and Vimes does something about it - good on him.

As to the shock horror of my not bothering to get the hardback - I'm just not that into Terry these days that I have to get everything the minute it comes out. If it's in the publishing sausage machine before he eventually succumbs then it'll come out eventually - they're not going to stop printing the buggers are they?

Honestly - what absolute rubbish to suggest I'm not a true fan for daring to save my pennies to go to Ireland for the convention in a fortnight instead of paying through the nose for something I can get more cheaply in 6 months and I'm not in a tearing hurry to get to despite spoilers etc... 8) :twisted: Will I see you at Ennistymon on the 4th Nov I wonder - even though Terry's not going to be there? Does that make you the bad fan - of course not!

Finally - I can't remember if J-I-B said it in this thread or one of the others (why is it we've got at least 4 Snuff discussion threads BTW? ) about Terry's gradual slide as a writer - consider this viewpoint. I would put almost all of the DW books from The Truth onwards as 'sub-standard' as in not 'vintage' Terry. Of course there are exceptions (actually for me only Nightwatch and Thief of Time) depending on your own preferences but I think that Terry actually lost interest in the traditional Discworld with TT. Ironically this co-incides with the death of Josh Kirby but possibly also with Terry's father's last illness - certainly there's a ground shift in his writing at that time and significantly it's when the Lancre Witch series was downgraded to cameo status. So no, forgive me, I'm no longer a rabid reader of Terry, but I love and honour him for what he does write about with humour and courage and humanity, and in the last 10 years or so it's his non-fiction (Science) Discworld books and Nation that actually 'shine' more for me than the full on canon ones.

Ogg - thanks for the apology. Not really needed because it didn't really cause any offence and all opinion adds to the discussion...

 

[DaveC]

Finally - I can't remember if J-I-B said it in this thread or one of the others (why is it we've got at least 4 Snuff discussion threads BTW? ) about Terry's gradual slide as a writer - consider this viewpoint. I would put almost all of the DW books from The Truth onwards as 'sub-standard' as in not 'vintage' Terry. Of course there are exceptions (actually for me only Nightwatch and Thief of Time) depending on your own preferences but I think that Terry actually lost interest in the traditional Discworld with TT. Ironically this co-incides with the death of Josh Kirby but possibly also with Terry's father's last illness - certainly there's a ground shift in his writing at that time and significantly it's when the Lancre Witch series was downgraded to cameo status. So no, forgive me, I'm no longer a rabid reader of Terry, but I love and honour him for what he does write about with humour and courage and humanity, and in the last 10 years or so it's his non-fiction (Science) Discworld books and Nation that actually 'shine' more for me than the full on canon ones.
:

I agree I certainly saw a change in style and it was weird that it coincided with the change of illustrator.The books since The Truth are unmistakenly thicker and more longwinded, but on the whole not less enjoyable, for me anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

getting it from a friend next week. Though she's not happy with it either.

 

[raisindot]

Until recently, the dwarves and trolls were treated as the goblins are in Snuff by the human population--as lower level lifeforms. It was only when these non-human groups began to prosper economically that they began to gain grudging respect.

But speciesm is still rampant on the DW. Snuff simply portrays a more virulent form of it.

Yes extreme obviously - but trolls and dwarves were treated as lower lifeforms 'up until recently'? Really!

Trolls and Dwarves and Werewolves were in the Watch by Men at Arms weren't they? Chrysoprase (or someone quite like him) and the Stronginthearms were pretty much at liberty to join in and help burn down the Broken Drum as far back as CoM/LF weren't they? The dwarves were mending broomsticks for Granny way back in ER and Trolls taking part in MP, albeit as stuntmen - they were part of a social setup and not kept as possessions.

By 'recently,' I was referring to the time covered in the 'contemporary' DW books and really focusing on AM. Obviously, there's more interaction between humans and non-humans in the Ramtops and Uberwald, since there's a more even distribution of power and population among those species there.

Back to AM. In TFE, it is mentioned that there were no dwarves in AM until around 50 years or so ago. In the Keel period of Night Watch, the only non-human character is Reg Shoe, and he only becomes a zombie when he is killed at the end. Certainly there's no evidence of a large and visible non-human population there. Any dwarves or trolls in AM at that time would have been treated with the same level of disdain and speciesism as people like De Worde Snr. in The Truth and even the early Sam Vimes treated them. Even in Thud, Sybil's friend in Koom Valley believes all trolls walk around naked and should be housed in stables.

Speciesism never fades even in contemporary AM. Look at what everyone thought about both goblins and orcs in UA until Nutt demonstrated that the leopard could change its shorts. Look at how everyone treated golems until Dorfl demonstrated their sentience in Feet of Clay.

 

[Anonymous]

But there's an important point between Dorfl and the orc :
The orc is too prefect to be true.
Dorfl became a part of the society but still has to face prejudice and isn't equally accepted/etc by everyone.
The orc on the other hand... society adjusted to him and in the end the only one who dares to speak against him is the designated villain.

 

[raisindot]

Finally - I can't remember if J-I-B said it in this thread or one of the others (why is it we've got at least 4 Snuff discussion threads BTW? ) about Terry's gradual slide as a writer - consider this viewpoint. I would put almost all of the DW books from The Truth onwards as 'sub-standard' as in not 'vintage' Terry.

Interesting. I'm not so sure if he lost interest as much as he felt he needed to expand the scope of the series to include new characters and settings.

For me, Monstrous Regiment marks the first 'latter stage' 'adult' DW novel I had a hard time liking. Going Postal took me two readings (and an audio book listen) to appreciate it. Thud for me was a masterpiece, one of his top 5. Making Money was very problemmatic but for me had enough good scenes to in some ways make up for the sloggy bits.

For me, UA is the first truly subpar 'later stage' DW novel, where so much of it is so completely bad that it signals to me a real decline. Snuff, while better than UA, still retains the same narrative problems that plagued UA.
As I said before, how he managed to largely rebound to form with I Shall Wear Midnight between these two lesser works may have more to do with the greater editorial strictness one needs with a YA book that one needs with an adult book.

 

[Anonymous]

Another 'problem' (IMHO) with MR was that it also marks the first occassion of AM's portrayal as the ,let's call it, omnipotent force without which no other city/country/nation can do.
Vimes' role in MR (being the trigger for the solution) could as well have been fulfilled by a new character from one of the main nations of the book.

 

[Tonyblack]

Please remember that this is a discussion with spoilers for Snuff. Many people visiting this thread will not have read the other books yet. So please beware of posting spoilers.

I will just say that A-M's interest in MR is perfectly natural seeing as their clacks towers are being threatened. And A-M has been the most important city on the Circle Sea since the earliest books.

 

[Ogg]

As to the shock horror of my not bothering to get the hardback - I'm just not that into Terry these days that I have to get everything the minute it comes out. If it's in the publishing sausage machine before he eventually succumbs then it'll come out eventually - they're not going to stop printing the buggers are they?

Honestly - what absolute rubbish to suggest I'm not a true fan for daring to save my pennies to go to Ireland for the convention in a fortnight instead of paying through the nose for something I can get more cheaply in 6 months and I'm not in a tearing hurry to get to despite spoilers etc... 8) :twisted: Will I see you at Ennistymon on the 4th Nov I wonder - even though Terry's not going to be there? Does that make you the bad fan - of course not!

Ogg - thanks for the apology. Not really needed because it didn't really cause any offence and all opinion adds to the discussion...

Well, at least you noticed my apology, it was not my intention to doubt 'true fans'. I still say that anyone posting here in this actual 'Snuff' thread should read the book first and I reiterate that it's not that expensive either. Admittedly you can't all buy it in Tesco for £5 like I did but still, it's hardly a burden on the ole puse strings is it?

 

[Anonymous]

Please remember that this is a discussion with spoilers for Snuff. Many people visiting this thread will not have read the other books yet. So please beware of posting spoilers.

I will just say that A-M's interest in MR is perfectly natural seeing as their clacks towers are being threatened. And A-M has been the most important city on the Circle Sea since the earliest books.

Okay, it might be just my opinon, but to me it felt a bit forced. 'most important city' or not.
Its whole role in the book felt...I really don't know how to phrase it

EDIT: And once again apologise to everyone I offended with my opinion I feel horrible right now.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Speciesism never fades even in contemporary AM. Look at what everyone thought about both goblins and orcs in UA until Nutt demonstrated that the leopard could change its shorts. Look at how everyone treated golems until Dorfl demonstrated their sentience in Feet of Clay.

Jeff - NP with the fact that speciesism exists on the Disc as it evidently does and not just between humans v The Rest (as surely this is an exact description of the Troll/Dwarf dynamic ), just as to degree. Trolls are probably closest to goblins/orcs in terms of being looked down on by humans but they were never slaves as such surely - mainly because they have v. little reason to come into contact with humans ordinarily outside of the city and it's Dwarves that cause them problems as they inhabit the same territories.

The city migrations of course are all covered from 1983 in Roundworld as post John Keel AM - Nightwatch is the only book that covers that period and presumably at that time A-M was not the gold-lined streets attraction that it becomes when we get to the earliest AM we know from CoM onwards when Vetinari is arguably only just in charge and the city becomes more cosmopolitan that it attracts other species - would you go to a 'promised land' that didn't want/need your 'type' when you're King of the Mountain with all the gold you can handle back home? No draw there for Dwarves at least is there?

Obviously something happens in between to make it worthwhile for the Dwarves to migrate and for Troll skills to become viable within the city's remit - my point is they go there as migrant workers not as slaves because they provide some kind of function that humans don't supply that make it worth their while to leave their natural homes?

The goblins appear not to have had this choice and part of that is perhaps connected to their ancestral past as thralls of some more competent 'Dark Lord' - don't know whether there's an analogy to Middle Earth here in that they're partly 'created' or bred but in that fantasy world the Elf/Orc division was created by a Dark Lord in that he's supposed to have mutilated and genetically degraded Elves into a travesty of their original form (and the same with Men before we get into that argument too ) to effectively breed them to 'evil' or have them as walking zombies possessed by 'evil spirits' - that's the legendarium there with grounds for why ME orcs are so hated to the point of genocide - enslavement doesn't even get a look in there because they're completely aggressive and not wanted even as slaves...

I digress hugely but to suggest that Discworld trolls and dwarves were more than the recipients of general 'speciesism' to the point they were hunted and enslaved just isn't on the map. In John Keel's time there was 'just' no good reason for them to become economic migrants in AM - that's all, whether or not they were 'wanted' there.

Discuss