SPOILERS The Fifth Elephant Discussion *Spoilers*

[=Tamar]

But, I would argue that in TFE he is not motivated by love. He has received as "Dear John" letter from Angua. If he truly loved her, he would let her go.

I always felt that these sort of idealistic messages would be something a Discworld book would deconstruct.

In contrast, I feel that Discworld has a great many idealistic messages. However, they are not created by ignoring the less altruistic motives that people have. Instead, they are created in spite of the less altruistic motives, to counteract them.

Are the things Carrot did morally questionable? I think, from what I've read regarding fan opinions, this all depends on Carrots motives, and his motives aren`t made clear at all.

From at least Men at Arms on, Carrot's character has an increasingly visible duality. He says things that can be interpreted two ways. Angua and Vimes begin to catch on to this doubletalk. Vimes in particular now thinks of it as typical of Carrot when Carrot says that if the fire at the Fools' Guild destroyed the entire building, it would be "a blow for" the arts and entertainment in Ankh-Morpork. The ambiguity is that the blow could be a blow that destroys it, or a blow that destroy something that has been harming it. Carrot is being either innocently positive or deeply sarcastic, and because we never see inside his head, we don't know. But we can look at his actions and make an educated guess. His actions lead to the death of his competition, a period of severe damage to the Watch, and to his making statements to Nobby at the end that are falsehoods.

 

[Tonyblack]

I'm currently rereading this book and it has struck me that this is possibly the book that starts a lot of the later ones and has the theme of Vetinari and Lady Margolotta opening up the Discworld - at least the main continent - and uniting it with trade, travel and the basic efforts to unite old enemies.

This book is about how certain factions of the Dwarfs are in cahoots with the werewolves in trying to destroy the liberal leader of the dwarfs and replacing him with a traditionalist who rejects the outside world. Wolfgang wants to lead Uberwald above ground and have Albrecht lead below.

Ultimately they fail thanks to Vimes. Vetinari is playing some sort of game with Vimes as his chess piece. He has passed that piece onto Margolotta to give some protection.

I'm reminded somewhat of the Brexit vote as well as the recent US election, with certain people trying to stop the opening of borders and free trade around the planet. Those same isolationist tactics are being played out by the bad guys in this book. The Clacks system is the key here in that it is allowing for the first time, almost instantaneous communication - think of it like the telephone system on our own world. This whole uniting of the Disc is carried on many of the future books. The law is being spread. Communication is being improved. Racism is being stamped out and old enemies are becoming friends. Even slavery is no longer being tollerated. Raising Steam seems to be the icing on the cake as far as this trend is concerned.

 

[raisindot]

I totally agree with you, Tony. TFE was really the book that started what I think is Pterry's true "golden age." It's really the first book where other locations parts of the DW besides Ankh Morporkh and the Ramtops emerge as true cultural entities. Jingo was kind of a setup for this, but even in that book Klatsch was in some ways more of a parody of colonian stereotypes than a real nation state.

In TFE, Pterry made Uberwald a living breathing world onto itself with its own politics, feudal structure, economy and folklore. Had Pterry written it in his early period it might have been little more than a mash up of Universal Pictures horror movie cliches. But he does so much more with it. He gives the werewolves, Lady Margolotta, the dwarfs and even the helpless "human" citizens very deep backstories and religious and cultural traditions. He introduces the concept of a "progressive and forward looking" Ankh Morporkh, in contrast to the more reactionary attitude (as generally expressed by Vetinari) toward progress in books like Moving Pictures and Soul Music. And just about every character except Carrot contributes something valuable to the resolution of the plot. And it's the first book where Lady Sybil emerges as a true character in her own right, solving problems that are even beyond the realm of her supercop husband.

The quality of the books that immediately emerged from the ideas introduced in TFE are phenomenal. It's hard to imagine classics like Thief of Time, The Truth, Night Watch and Going Postal being written with TFE setting the precedent. For that and many reasons, TFE still remains my favorite DW book.

 

[Tonyblack]

I just got to the bit where Dee is unmasked and she claims that it's those liberal dwarfs like Cheery that she did it for, with their new ways of doing things and being openly feminine. Sorry to extend things to the recent election again, but Dee is like those women who voted for Trump.

 

[raisindot]

Tony, much as I despise Trump, your positioning of Dee as an analogue to Trump voters really isn't accurate. Women who voted Trump--and I know many women who voted for him--didn't vote for him because they want to go back to the time were women were barefoot and pregnant and treated solely as sex objects. Nor are they bigoted, bible-belting racists. They voted for him for the same reasons their husbands did--they couldn't find good paying jobs, their personal income was stagnant, they were being forced to pay far too much for health care that was supposed to be affordable, they felt their taxes were too high, they felt that government exerted too much control over their lives, they felt that too much effort was being expended to protect the rights of minorities and immigrants while nothing was being done to improve the lives of white people.

Mind you, I don't agree with any of these sentiments. This is just what they were thinking. They weren't voting to to roll back time to the 1950s. They were voting to move the country forward in a different direction than it has been for the past 50 years or so.

Let's face it--America has a long history of electing men who are either stupid, evil, or laughably unqualified--or any combination of the above. Richard Nixon and George W. Bush immediately come to mind, and both men were electorally elected in razor-close elections where their party replaced the executive party in power.

 

[RathDarkblade]

(Moving on from this thread, as per Raisindot's request).

Well, I can see that a lot has been discussed about TFE here already (as I expected).

Regarding Carrot's motivation for running after Angua - I can see that Mixa's reaction is idealistic (i.e. Carrot runs off out of true love for Angua, wishing to protect her etc.) Raisindot, on the other hand, views Carrot's actions negatively (e.g. he neglects A-M and his duty, causes problems for Angua and Vimes, treats Gaspode abominably, and tells lies to Nobby, among other things).

I am... uncertain. When I was reading TFE for the first time, I was initially cheering for Carrot because I was thinking along the lines of, "Well, here we are again - Carrot and Gaspode, a man and his dog, out on an adventure" etc. It seemed reminiscent of MAA (among others) but in the countryside instead of A-M, and I was looking forward to Carrot's idealism contrasted by Gaspode's world-weary sarcasm.

As the book went on, however, I found Carrot to be... unsettling. As a streetwise cop in an unfamiliar environment, he seemed like a square peg in a round hole. He was doing his best to catch up to Angua and to protect her (which was admirable in a Superman/Lois Lane sort of way) - but it became clear that she didn't need his protection, and even found it irksome. She was obviously fond of Carrot, but as equals (i.e. professionally) and not as boyfriend/girlfriend.

This was a book where DW, for me, "grew up" in a way - it became darker, edgier, even nastier (with Wolf's character and his followers). The Wolf-Vimes chase scenes are some of my favourite "dark" scenes from this book, and also some of the funniest (especially Terry's take on The Cherry Orchard). All the same, I also appreciated the jump-backs to A-M and seeing how the Watch was coping under Captain Colon... sheesh. Now there is one man that was never meant to be an officer.

All in all, it's difficult to know what to think of TFE in terms of Carrot. G!G! is one of my favourite DW books, period (particularly because of its philosophy) - as is FoC (mostly because, being Jewish myself, I'm well aware of the golem mythology - and it was clear that Terry was having loads of fun with it). I liked MAA, but not as much as G!G!, FoC, or - for that matter - Jingo (which I think is a little under-appreciated here - but that's another story).

If we take Carrot out of the equation, then yes - clearly TFE sets up the later books (e.g. Snuff, Going Postal, Monstrous Regiment etc.). It does so by introducing Uberwald in much greater detail, as well as introducing the Clacks, much greater detail on Dwarf society, and Lady Margolotta - one of my favourite characters, and the Uberwaldian counterweight to Vetinari. (I'm sure I've forgotten some things, but eh).

Hmm... I've just realised - from TFE onwards, I don't think we see Gaspode anymore (except in The Truth). 'Tis a pity, but Gaspode is reminiscent of the 'lighter' years of DW - perhaps there was no room for him in Pterry's 'darker' era? *shrug*

Well, I've been rambling on for a while, so I'll stop. What's your view, eh?

 

[=Tamar]

From TFE on we don't see a lot of Carrot either. I think Terry was pretty much done with him. In The Truth, he's barely a spear-carrier. The Truth has doubles of several character names, and Carrot's "double" is a humourous vegetable. We see rather more of Gaspode in The Truth, where he becomes a significant if not major character again, having attached himself to Foul Ole Ron as an equal so he doesn't have to be anyone else's dog. Here's a theory: is TFE the last gasp of the "royal command" bit? The dwarfs have a king but it's an elective office. Even in TLH I don't recall Carrot using his mystical command powers, and Ankh-Morpork seems to be edging slowly toward something resembling modern government. Vetinari seems to be paying some attention to what the various guild leaders say.

 

[RathDarkblade]

In TLH, Carrot (from what I can recall) was using his 'mystical ruler' powers, but subtly (like Vetinari). He's pretending to be simple, but part of me is wondering if he really taking the mickey out of Rincewind's world-weariness.

He also leads a search of The Kite for the mysterious "space monster", and - more importantly - does two things:

1. He faces down Cohen and his Silver Horde, when they could easily chop him up into rissoles;
2. He brings about a very effective denouement, by convincing the gods to repair The Kite.

I doubt if either Rincewind or Leonard da Quirm could have done either. That said, in TLH, Rincewind distracts Cohen (with his talk of puppies etc.) until Carrot can (try to) arrest him and the Horde.
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I agree that Terry was more or less done with Carrot, but I disagree that Carrot was less of a character because of that. I think that Terry was tired of the "Carrot-as-the-King-of-Ankh" plots (see MAA and FoC), but I found Carrot to be a very effective foil and second banana to Vimes (as well as the obvious love interest to Angua). He also has his own (quite effective) subplot in Jingo.

It's true that Carrot doesn't appear much from TFE onwards; having said that, he doesn't completely disappear. He gets about 2-3 scenes in NW, remember (briefing Vimes on the way to the Palace, rushing into UU Library after the storm to be briefed by Ponder, and greeting Vimes when he returns). But yes - the Ankh-Morpork Watch was definitely getting bigger and more complicated, and I guess that there was simply no room for Carrot as a major character any more.

I remember reading a comment from Terry once about this: he mentioned that as A-M (and the A-M Watch) was getting bigger, it gave him opportunities to develop new characters. Naturally, this meant that some of the older ones had to "retire into the shade", as it were. They weren't completely gone, but they were simply not as major as they once were - and I suppose that's fairly natural.

Comments?

 

[raisindot]

Rath, your comments are all right on.

TFE still remains my favorite DW book, because it really is a gigantic leap forward in Pterry's writing style as well as in the future development of just about everything in the series. Before it, Ankh Morpork is still pretty much a "medieval" city without a huge internationalist view. Jingo moved that forward a bit, but it was still a two-nation debate. TFE finally establishes Vetinari as something other a semi-despot who people are trying to remove from power. Here, he is truly seeing the future of AM and uses people like Vimes as his means of achieving what are ultimately political and economic ends.

TFE is where Pterry decides who in the Watch will be "important" and who will recede into the background. Angua comes into her own as a strong, multi-dimensional character who is no longer Carrot's dog. Detritus displays a heretofore unrevealed and uncanny sense of political and diplomatic astuteness. Cheery finally gets to do something important other than being a symbol of the modern female dwarf. Carrot is "dethroned" from his role as hero-king, and for the first time becomes a hindrance, rather than a help, in the resolution of the narrative. Lady Sybil, mostly a joke in the past books, emerges into her own as a woman who has her own formidable political and diplomatic skills.

But most of all, TFE is the novel where Vimes finally comes into his own. FOC was where he began to become a great cop; Jingo was where he started to become a shaper of world events, but TFE is where everything that he will be comes together. And as he comes together, the future of Ankh-Morpork as the future of the DW comes together as well.

For Rath in particular: As a Jewish person, did you, like me, perceive the culture and internal struggles of the Dwarfs (and their near worship of words) to be an analogue to those of Orthodox Jews, particularly those in the Chasidic communities?

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm... I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Chasidic community; therefore, I cannot say what it is like to be a Chasid. (For those of you not aware: the Chasidic Jewish community is what most non-Jews classify as "Jewish" when the see it - i.e. the 'quintessential' religious Jew. However, be aware that the Chasidim are only one kind of religious Jew, and in English they are known as Jewish Orthodox. There are other 'strains' of Jewish religiosity, including Liberal, Ultra-Orthodox, and Reform Jewry, as well as secular Jews who appreciate the religion but don't take it very personally. The whole situation is analogous to the way Christianity works - i.e. Catholics, Protestants, etc.)

Some people have made analogues between religious Jews and Terry's Dwarfs. To quote from The Art of Discworld, here's what Terry had to say:

"There's a school of thought... that Discworld dwarfs are Jewish, although the Jewish fans who have said so seem quite content with this (the dwarfs are hard-working, you see, and law-abiding, argumentative; they pay great heed to written tradition - while arguing about it - and feel mildly guilty about working in cities a long way from the mountains and mines, and respect the ultra-traditionalists back home even though they seem unable to move with the times...) Each to their own; I was just trying to come up with dwarfs that fitted the modern fantasy tradition but worked." ('The Art of Discworld', Pratchett/Kidby, pub. 2004)

Personally, I did subscribe to that idea - perhaps subconsciously, perhaps not - until Thud!. The idea of dwarf terrorists being organised into hit squads, especially wielding flamethrowers, is not something that I have ever been able to equate with Jewishness or the modern Jewish state, and I pray that it will not happen. (Granted, there is the Mossad - I'm not entirely naive about the Mossad's activities - but it generally acts either to protect the state or to strike back at people who have already harmed its interests or its people. See, for instance, Operation Entebbe (carried out after the Ugandans hijacked an Israeli plane in the 70s), or Operation Wrath of God, to assassinate those terrorists who killed the Israeli athletes during the Berlin Olympics of 1972.)

Anyway, I've strayed from the original point; I'm sorry, I have a tendency to do that sometimes. *blush* Raisindot, what did you make of the ultra-religious dwarfs as depicted in Thud! and Raising Steam?

 

[Tonyblack]

I wouldn't say the dwarfs in the later books aren't so much ultra-religious - it is clearly stated many times that the dwarfs are not religious. What the Grags and Deep-Downers are is zealots. They are fundamentalists not in the religious sense but in the sense that they hate change and are angry that their people are not sticking to the traditional ways.

Having said that, Terry is clearly using them to point out zealotry whether it be religious, political or traditionalist. I think it is limiting to just connect them to one set of beliefs. They are a multi level aphorism.

 

[raisindot]

Anyway, I've strayed from the original point; I'm sorry, I have a tendency to do that sometimes. *blush* Raisindot, what did you make of the ultra-religious dwarfs as depicted in Thud! and Raising Steam?

No, I thought that the Jewish-Dwarf analogy really only applied to TFE. (In case you don't know, I am Jewish, but certainly as far away from Chasidism/Ultra Orthodox as you can be). Pterry took the ultra-reactionary dwarfs in a completely different direction in Thud! and Raising Steam, where the "evil" dwarfs are more akin to religious-motivated terrorist groups.

 

[raisindot]

Admittedly, I know almost nothing about the history of the UK which I'm trying to rectify by reading a very long history of England book. In one of the parts they mentioned how ancient Pict kings were coronated on the "Stone of Scone."

After reading that I almost blew coffee out of my nose. And it made me appreciate all the more how through a simple inversion of nouns Pterry created a "royal" concept that was both funny and meaningful at the same time.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Yep! A new Scottish king would plant his feet on the Stone of Scone, to show that he would walk in the old laws of Scotland and his forefathers. But the Stone wasn't just used for the ancient Pictish kings, either. As far as I know, it was used to crown every Scottish king until Edward I (aka "Longshanks", aka the villain in a really really stupid film called "Braveheart") stupidly decided to confiscate the Stone in the late 1200s and bury it under the throne of England in Buckingham Palace. And there it remained until the 1950s, when - in a midnight raid - the stone was daringly removed and taken away to.... who knows where?

A few weeks later, it was returned to Buck House... or was it?!? *DUN DUN DUNNNNNN* No-one knows if it was the real thing or a replica. However, in the early 2000s, it was taken out yet again and returned to Scotland - specifically, to Edinburgh Castle.

I'm sure that Who's Wee Dug can tell you a lot more about the Stone of Scone. *hint* I'm just giving you the bare bones of the story, because this is what I know.

Incidentally, I was re-reading The Folklore of Discworld recently, and the Stone of Scone isn't the only 'magical' stone of rulership. There is supposed to be an Irish stone that would scream a greeting to the rightful ruler (though how it would know, I have no idea). Even stranger - and fitting in with the story of Dwarf Low King sitting on the Scone of Stone - there is a myth (I think this is in Rheims Cathedral, in France?) about a stone. According to the story, Jesus Christ was helping to build the cathedral (I told you it was a myth). He felt tired and sat down on a stone to rest... and from that moment on, that stone bears the imprint of Christ's buttocks. :-

No further comment, m'lud. On the other hand, I'm sure that particular stone would have been handy for the medieval tourist trade... all those pilgrimages to the cathedral, etc.!

Anyway, sorry to digress like that (I do that sometimes). I just found those stories fascinating, and wanted to share.

 

[raisindot]

Having yet again "listen/read" this once again, there's sometimes that still bothers me about the narrative, and that's how often "last minute rescues" occur.

First Angua rescues Carrot from almost certain death by frostbite. Had Angua been far away or otherwise engaged, the "lucky" indestructible Carrot would have died.

Second, and more bothering, is the real deus ex machina rescue of Vimes from certain death by werewolves. Had Angua and Gavin been significantly further away, Vimes would certainly have died.

It's especially bothersome in light of Vimes' last conversation with Lady Margolotta, when she says that she was counting on Vimes to unravel the truth behind the stolen Scone and to get rid of Wolfgang, because she knew that "Vetinari would never have sent a stupid fool." But this is all Monday morning quarterbacking. Had Angua and Gavin not detected Vimes' scent or had they arrived two minutes later, Vimes would have become dog food. And the werewolves and Dee would have succeeded in their conspiracy.

I almost wish the rescue had happened in a way that Vimes might have "won" the Game. For example, he could have reached the clacks tower without being ambushed, locked himself inside, and, after lighting a cigar, looking out of the window down at Wolfgang and saying, "When do I get my 400 kroner?" Angua and Carrot could arrive a little while later and scare the werewolves off, and then the plot could proceed the way it did in the book, with the gang going to pick up Detritus and Cherry and rescue Lady Sybil.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Hmm... deus ex machina plot devices are very annoying, true. But just about every author employs them.. think of the eagles saving the day in The Hobbit - and the same eagles saving Frodo and Sam and LOTR,... or Edgar saving the day in Shakespeare's King Lear... or just about every play ever written by any Greek playwright... >

Compared to that, I'd say that Pterry's deus ex machina are relatively minor.

 

[raisindot]

Hmm... deus ex machina plot devices are very annoying, true. But just about every author employs them.. think of the eagles saving the day in The Hobbit - and the same eagles saving Frodo and Sam and LOTR,... or Edgar saving the day in Shakespeare's King Lear... or just about every play ever written by any Greek playwright... >

Compared to that, I'd say that Pterry's deus ex machina are relatively minor.

Spoiler

Yes, but (at least in LOTR) there was logic to the eagles rescuing Frodo and Sam--once the ring had been destroyed, Gandalf knew all hell would break loose and sent the eagles to rescue to them. And no one expected the two hobbits to survive anyway.

Compare this to DW books where Pterry has set up a situation where a certain character either has the means to definitively triumph or potentially fail, and Pterry uses a "surprise ending" to resolve the situation.

Spoiler

Making Money: Mr. Bent in clown guise comes in to "rescue" Moist from sure prosecution for stealing the gold. Without Bent there to reveal the truth, Moist would never have been able to talk himself out of that one.

Jingo: Vimes is on the verge of killing the Klatchian king, seeing no way out of the situation, when Vetinari pops in at the last minute to stop him (and save him).

Fifth Elephant: Angua and Carrot save Vimes from a certain death at the paws of the werewolves.

Lords and Ladies: Magrat is on the verge of definitely beating (and potentially killing) the Elf Queen when the Elf King steps in to call the game to a halt.

Carpe Jugulum: Mightily Oaks has "killed" the Count, and Granny and the others are steps away from killing the other Magpyrs when the Old Count steps in to stop a bloodbath.

Monstrous Regiment: Polly's regiment is in a standoff against the fanatical Powers that Be when the ghost of the Baronness appears and sets things straight.

Contrast those books to the Tiffany Aching series, where there are no such things. Tiffany has to figure out and resolve every situation on her own. She may have a Feegle or two to assist her, but the resolution of the main antagonist in each book is left to her own intelligence and resourcefulness.

 

[Aquamarine]

Jingo: Vimes is on the verge of killing the Klatchian king, seeing no way out of the situation, when Vetinari pops in at the last minute to stop him (and save him).

This does not strike me as a Deus Ex Machina. It makes perfect sense for Vetinari to be there, considering his long-term goals; once he had information on the island's state and on the Klatchian army's size, and once he had infiltrated Klatch, confronting the Prince was the natural next step. As for timing, Vimes was stuck in that position for several pages, suggesting a generous window of opportunity for Vetinari to step in. Not to forget this was right on the brink of official battle, exactly the last moment he could dare to wait before playing his trump card.

In fact, I think "Deus Ex Machina" is being used far too loosely here. All those situations are set up ahead of time in complex plots. As I understand it, "Deus Ex Machina" involves rule-breaking that jars with the established nature of a work's canon (hence why originally it meant "God out of a machine", because no mortal action thus far presented could untangle the knotted plot), not merely convenient timing. The timing might be contrived, but it's at least vaguely plausible in the setting.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Aquamarine, I agree with you to an extent. It all depends on which definition of "Deus Ex Machina" you choose to refer to.

Originally, the term did apply to a "god out of the machine" - i.e. an actor who was lowered to the stage "from the heavens", as it were, in order to resolve a hitherto irresolvable and seemingly hopeless situation. But to quote the wiki-article on this:

The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device.

So if a problematic situation is resolved unexpectedly and suddenly by a new character or a new event etc., then it is a Deus Ex Machina. However, in these cases...

******************WARNING: SPOILERS*****************

1. Making Money: Mr Bent has just overcome Cosmo's thugs. I think we can safely assume that after talking to Miss Drapes, he would be keen to help save Moist. Good timing? Yes, but not all that unexpected, since Mr Bent is not a new or unestablished character.

2. Jingo: We know that Vetinari was on his way to the battlefield, along with Nobby and Colon. Simply a case of good timing - Vetinari is hardly a new character.

3. Fifth Elephant: Angua and Carrot are not new characters, and we definitely knew that they were somewhere in the vicinity, but Uberwaldean geography is vague at the best of times. They might have got there in time... or maybe not. I'm still willing to overlook this, because it makes for a good story.

4. Lords and Ladies: The Elf King is an established character (we see Nanny Ogg and Casanunda talking to him earlier). It is possible that he was keeping an eye on things and deciding whether or not to step in.

5. Carpe Jugulum: The Magpyrs being "killed" wouldn't have resolved the plot, since it would have left a power vacuum in Don'tgonearthe Castle. The Old Count stepping in is a way to resolve the plot. Convenient? Yes, but we know that Igor had been trying to contact him throughout the novel - perhaps he'd only just made it?

6. Monstrous Regiment: The ghost of the Duchess is not a Deus Ex Machina. Throughout the novel, we are shown that "Wazzer" unfailingly believes that the Duchess is alive, which lead us to guess that Wazzer is perhaps the Duchess herself, or at least possessed by the Duchess's spirit. During the climax, it may be that this 'possession' theory comes to pass - after all, on the Discworld things come true if enough people believe in them. We are explicitly told that the Duchess is viewed by the Borogravians as a semi-divine entity, and Om never died because Brutha never stopped believing in him - so why should the Duchess die, as long as she had at least one believer?

It's possible that "Wazzer" Goom is Terry's take on Joan of Arc. At any rate, it may even be that the Duchess - like Cohen and the Silver Horde at the end of "The Last Hero" - is alive somewhere, even if that 'somewhere' is in Wazzer's heart. People say "I'm keeping him in my thoughts", so why should the Duchess die or be a ghost? "Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?" (Going Postal)

Anyway, that's my take on it.

 

[Ponderstibbons]

I really enjoyed this novel. Found it very interesting when Cheery explained the Knockermen to Vimes. Going to start The Truth now