SPOILERS The Fifth Elephant Discussion *Spoilers*

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raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#21
Tonyblack said:
I have a real problem with the Igors as (I know they are supposed to be funny) they don't make any sense to me. Why would these characters, who obviously care deeply about people, work for such monsters as the werewolves?

And what could they possibly do for the werewolves? o_O
Do they make any less sense that werewolves that live in castles or vampires that swore off drinking human blood?

Anyway, Igors are "bred" to be servants to aristocrats, or to totally mad scientists types. In Uberwald, the "monster" classes are the aristocracy, so that's where the Igors go, whether they happen to like their masters or not. And since it's a sign of status for an Uberwald aristocrat to have an Igor, it makes sense for the werewolves to have one as well. For an Igor, serving werewolves and vampires is a perfect job. They don't need servants to "serve them good," the live in old castles offering plenty of places to drop spiders and cobwebs, and they gets lots of time to do their experiments.

And Igors don't necessarily "like" humans--they like saving lives (or limbs) and humans give them the best opportunity for doing this, since your average vampire and werewolf doesn't require a great deal of medical care. And since saving a human puts that human in their debt for future limb harvests, it's in their personal best interests to be good surgeons.

Of course, left to their own devices, Igors are always most happy experimenting with lightning rods and beakers. They just can't help themselves.

J-I-B
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#22
Has anybody noticed that the number of deaths of somewhat significant characters in this book is way higher than in almost previous novel. We start of with the rather mundane deaths of the 7 (not 30 and a dog) highwaymen that Skimmer and Vimes account for. I rather liked Skimmer and was sorry to see him killed off by the werewolves. Then there is the puzzling report (possibly totally false) by Dee that Skimmer killed 3 dwarfs and was killed in an attempt to assassinate the Low King (although that may be a total lie). I rather assumed the werewolves had eaten him as well as the Consul, Wando Sleeps, and the two or three Clacks keepers, none of whose bodies show up again.

Then there is the death of Gavin (for whom Death makes an appearance) who died in the fight or the fall. And finally, Wolfgang, of course, is appropriately dispatched (put down) by Vimes, after turning completely mad and striking out at everyone and anyone from the Embassy Igor, the dwarf outside the embassy doors, a horse, the husband of the woman below the statue.

Any ideas about why there is such an increase in violence--most of it caused by the werewolves? In some senses, you could almost make this a "western" with the werewolves playing the part of the Indians against the heroic Captain.
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#23
swreader said:
Then there is the puzzling report (possibly totally false) by Dee that Skimmer killed 3 dwarfs and was killed in an attempt to assassinate the Low King (although that may be a total lie).

[Stuff cut]

... Any ideas about why there is such an increase in violence--most of it caused by the werewolves? In some senses, you could almost make this a "western" with the werewolves playing the part of the Indians against the heroic Captain.
Skimmer did indeed kill most of the bandits that had tried to stop the coach on the bay to Bonk, and Vimes is given the 'credit' for these deaths, the number of which grows larger as Vimes knew it would. Skimmer was killed by Wolfgang (or some other werewold) inside the clacks tower. Wolfgang (or some other werewolf) hid his body in the chandelier in the Dwarf's cavern to make it look like he (Skimmer) was responsible for a suidicde assasination attemption against Rhys. Skimmer didn't kill any dwarfs; this was just the lie Dee concocted in her conspiracy with Wolfgang to "frame" Skimmer.

As to the deathcount, yes, there is a pretty high count, although a number of 'nameless soldiers' died in Klatch in Jingo as well, many of them killed by Vimes' butler. I think all the deaths are totally appropriate. This is a violent tale about violent beings of all races. Uberwald is not a fairy-land; it's a land of nightmares, where the powerful dominate the weak. It would be far less of a compelling story without the violence.

As for the "cowboys vs. Indians" analogy, this is a bit outdated and incorrect, since basically the Native Americans were battling invading white people who were indisciminately killing off their people and ethnic cleansing their ancient lands. No such thing is happening in TFE. Vimes is a foreigner who is meddling in the affairs of another nation who only becomes violent because the more powerful foes force him into this role.
Perhaps this is more of a Japanese style "Seven Samuri"/"Magnificent Seven" plot where the "outsiders" are brought in to save the weak (Bonkers) from the oppressors (werewolves) and to make sure the truth comes out. The difference here being is that Vimes was never 'invited' to take on this role.

J-I-B
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#24
raisindot said:
As for the "cowboys vs. Indians" analogy, this is a bit outdated and incorrect, since basically the Native Americans were battling invading white people who were indisciminately killing off their people and ethnic cleansing their ancient lands. No such thing is happening in TFE. Vimes is a foreigner who is meddling in the affairs of another nation who only becomes violent because the more powerful foes force him into this role.
Perhaps this is more of a Japanese style "Seven Samuri"/"Magnificent Seven" plot where the "outsiders" are brought in to save the weak (Bonkers) from the oppressors (werewolves) and to make sure the truth comes out. The difference here being is that Vimes was never 'invited' to take on this role. J-I-B
I am not going to take the time to argue again with you about the totally unsupported ideas you have been advancing about this novel. We'll have to just agree that we disagree.

But I do wish you'd read my posts more carefully. If you had read this last one you'd have noticed that what I was saying, phrasing it differently so perhaps you'll understand this point, was that this novel has the same kind of unknown and lawless "feel" as most of the classic Westerns. Think High Noon and Tombstone and the OK Coral.

Unfortunately, in many of the early Westerns, the Indians are portrayed as "savage beasts" who kill indiscriminately (which is, of course, far from the truth). Uberwald is very much a Frontier area where the law is figuratively that of the gun. As Skimmer says to Vimes at the Inn of the 5th Elephant, "You left the law behind when we passed Lancre, Your Grace. Here it's the lore. What you keep is what you can. What's yours is what you fight for. The fittest survive." Thus, Uberwald is a frontier kind of area--even for dwarfs who conspire with the werewolves to put a reactionary Low King on the throne. There you could compare the struggle, figuratively, to the Western struggle between the cowboys and the farmers. All I'm saying is that this is, as Vetinari notes at the beginning, a very strange, unknown and lawless land.
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#25
swreader said:
I am not going to take the time to argue again with you about the totally unsupported ideas you have been advancing about this novel. We'll have to just agree that we disagree.
Actually, your assertion that my ideas are unsupported is in itself COMPLETELY unsupported. If you actually read MY posts more carefully, you would clearly see that I support every one of my assertions with examples. If you don't agree with my assertions that's fine. That's what literary debate is all about.

:laugh:

swreader said:
But I do wish you'd read my posts more carefully. If you had read this last one you'd have noticed that what I was saying, phrasing it differently so perhaps you'll understand this point, was that this novel has the same kind of unknown and lawless "feel" as most of the classic Westerns. Think High Noon and Tombstone and the OK Coral.
:eek:
Ummm....here is what you wrote relating to the western analogy.

"I some senses, you could almost make this a "western" with the werewolves playing the part of the Indians against the heroic Captain."

That's a rather large blanket statement, quite open to interpretation.

In any case, while the book may have some westernish scenes (such as the showdown between Vimes and Wolfgang) the book doesn't resemble a classic western in any way. Certainly not like "High Noon" or "OK Corral," where the 'heroes' were appointed by civilian authority within a town as sheriffs to protect the peace against the lawless bad guys. Neither Vimes nor Carrot are invested with this kind of authority. Vimes in any case isn't trying to protect the peace--he's trying to solve a mystery and he is rightly (by Uberwald standards) treated as an invader by the werewolves for trying to impose Ankh Morpork's concept of law upon a society that doesn't have them. He doesn't succeed. Even when he solves the mystery, he has to let Rhys administer justice to Dee. Even when he discovers that the werewolves are responsible for stealing the Scone, he is unable to bring them to justice. He can't even arrest Wolfgang and has to resort to the 'law' of the 'lore' to stop him. He doesn't do this to protect Bonk or society as a whole; he does this to keep Wolfgang from ultimately killing Carrot. This is nothing like classic westerns, where the lawmen are entrused to uphold the laws of 'civilization.'


swreader said:
Uberwald is very much a Frontier area where the law is figuratively that of the gun. As Skimmer says to Vimes at the Inn of the 5th Elephant, "You left the law behind when we passed Lancre, Your Grace. Here it's the lore. What you keep is what you can. What's yours is what you fight for. The fittest survive." Thus, Uberwald is a frontier kind of area--even for dwarfs who conspire with the werewolves to put a reactionary Low King on the throne. There you could compare the struggle, figuratively, to the Western struggle between the cowboys and the farmers.
Uberwald may have areas of uninhabited wildnerness, but its populated areas are anything BUT those of a frontier area. Frontiers are places where this is no central authority, power is transitory and arbitrary, and villages spring out of nowhere and have little culture or history. Uberwald has a long and rich history in which the dwarfs and trolls and vampires and werewolves have dwelled and ruled there for eons. There may be no "law" but there is "lore," the survival of the fittest, which is, in effect the law. If anything, Uberwald is much closer to a feudal society, with the "powerful lords" ruling certain fiefdoms and the townfolk pay 'tribute,' usually with their own blood and flesh. Uberwald may be 'uncivilized' by Ankh-Morpork standards, but. like all feudal societies, it is based on 'unwritten' agreements between the serfs and the rulers, who cannot be easily displaced.

J-I-B
 

poohcarrot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Sep 13, 2009
8,317
2,300
NOT The land of the risen Son!!
#26
raisindot said:
Actually, your assertion that my ideas are unsupported is in itself COMPLETELY unsupported.
J-I-B
I support that unsupported assertions, should be supported by supported assertions, but an unsupported assertion should not be supported by a different unsupported assertion. I'm sure you'll all support this.....or maybe not o_O .
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#27
poohcarrot said:
I support that unsupported assertions, should be supported by supported assertions, but an unsupported assertion should not be supported by a different unsupported assertion. I'm sure you'll all support this.....or maybe not o_O .

"I support this assertion!"
--The Hon. Archibald Wigglesworth
Department of Redundancy Department

:)

J-I-B
 

Jan Van Quirm

Sergeant-at-Arms
Nov 7, 2008
8,524
2,800
Dunheved, Kernow
www.janhawke.me.uk
#28
Shall we perhaps agree to show we differ by not supporting assertions unless we have already supported other unsupported assertions that were justifiably unjustified, with or without support according to assumed (or unassumed) unjustifiably supported assertions which in polite circles ought have been justifiably left unasserted, that is unsaid altogether (or written in fact) :eek:

Did someone just say something? Or already said that? :laugh:

Guys - there are showdowns. They happen all over in literature. The Earps get the Clantons. Robin Hood gets the Sherriff of Nottingham. Augustus nails Cleopatra (into taking the asp option). Odysseus gets everyone eventually (sneakily). And OK I'm being wildly vague but there are face-offs in any lawman story.

This isn't a study of lawlessness - if anything Uberwald has far too much law in that the weak are totally subjugated by the powerful and, although it's not quite as humiliating as the Magpyr social contract the ordinary folk are driven to effectively observing curfews and are forced into behaviours that suit their 'superiors' within certain limitations.

Wolfgang (not Dee) has brought things to a head not so much by the frankly silly Scone of Stone 'mystery' (because it was never stolen and could never be stolen) but by his contempt of the old ways where occasionally the hunted do win and can do very nicely out of doing so as well. Angua's parents are the status quo - the acceptable face of Uberwaldian custom in the same way that Old Count Magpyr played by the stupid, but nontheless civilised rules according to their culture.

We all agree that this book deals with the cultural oddities of Uberwald and just like any other society there are 'laws' that are implicit rather than written down. Don't go out at night in the town unless you're a vampire. Don't get caught out in the snowy forest after dusk or the werewolves'll get you.
Don't go to the Shades alone unless you're suicidal. Don't take any money with you either. Buyer beware of CMOT's sausage inna bun. DOn't play Cripple Mr. Onion with Granny - they aren't laws are they? This is about culture and social cowardice - or common sense depending on how you're looking at it... ;)
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#29
Jan Van Quirm said:
Don't go out at night in the town unless you're a vampire. Don't get caught out in the snowy forest after dusk or the werewolves'll get you.Don't go to the Shades alone unless you're suicidal. Don't take any money with you either. Buyer beware of CMOT's sausage inna bun. DOn't play Cripple Mr. Onion with Granny - they aren't laws are they? This is about culture and social cowardice - or common sense depending on how you're looking at it... ;)
You don't cut off Superman's cape.
You don't spit into the wind.
You don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
And You Don't Miss Around with Jim.

--Jim Croce, You Don't Mess Around with Jim

I hope there is someone old enough besides me who has heard of this song or this long-dead singer/songwriter.

:)

J-I-B
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,856
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#33
In an effort to wrench this discussion away from Country & Western Music... :eek:

What did you all think of Gaspode?

I was disappointed that everyone seemed to forget about him. No one went to look for him - or his body and no one seemed to mention him again.

He was (for me) one of the best characters in this book. A sort of Nobby Nobbs but more intelligent. I was very glad that he made it home safely to A-M - even if no one else seemed to care less.
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#34
Tonyblack said:
In an effort to wrench this discussion away from Country & Western Music... :eek:
Thank you!!!!!!

One of my favorite jokes about this kind is music is Martin Mull's:

"Remember the great folk music scare of the 60's? That s**t almost caught on!"

:)

Tonyblack said:
What did you all think of Gaspode?

I was disappointed that everyone seemed to forget about him. No one went to look for him - or his body and no one seemed to mention him again.
Yeah, that's his lot in life...to be someone's little doggie for awhile then shunted aside. Carrot didn't treat him very well--another sign of his transforming personality throughout the book.

Fortunately, Gaspode does have a much better role in "The Truth", having found a 'family' (if you can call it that) that truly needs his unique skills.

J-I-B
 

Jan Van Quirm

Sergeant-at-Arms
Nov 7, 2008
8,524
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#35
:oops: If you get me talking about Gaspode I'll never stop... :twisted:

Thing is with Gaspode being the Littlest Smelly Hobo (remember the old TV series with the german shepherd dog?
) is that he's a 'drifter' character so nobody's really supposed to care about him too much aside from the Canting Crew perhaps? And they're too mad to take much notice of him half the time :p

I think perhaps Carrot and Angua did look for him along with Gavin but of course they found him so maybe they did assume he'd been swept away to doggie heaven. In a way this adventure was Gaspode's 'Valhalla' - he always wanted to run with wolves so being carried around like a puppy and riding the sleigh with Carrot came close. Plus of course he stuck by Gavin to the end and tried to help him so I reckon he was feeling pretty pleased with himself on the way back to A-M. He doesn't really need humans at all, he just likes to hang around with werewolves... :laugh:
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#36
I didn't altogether like Gaspode in his earlier appearances (in MP and MAA) but I came to like him (and perhaps understand Pratchett's use of him) a good deal more in this book.

Gaspode is, in some ways, the canine version of Angua. That is, he has some human attributes (speech and increased intelligence over the ordinary dog), but in other ways he wants to be a "good dog" and have a benevolent master--only he doesn't want that either when Carrot, rather than providing for him himself in MAA, asks Vetinari to find a home for him.

Gaspode has in some ways a major role in this book, and because of what he learns about humans (especially Carrot), when he returns to Ankh-Morpork on his own, he joins the Canting Crew and becomes invisible. I suspect that Pratchett, who had painted himself into a corner in his development of Carrot in previous books, tried to use this one to make him somewhat more human and less "divine kingly". And part of this effort is to give Carrot a dark side, and in that Gaspode plays a major part.

Carrot unashamedly manipulates Gaspode into helping him track Angua and promises steak every night. (Gaspode gets the odd chicken, but no steak ever.) Gaspode, as he has ever since MP, tends to see himself in "movie role" terms (Brave Dog Defends Master from Wolves). But throughout, Gaspode is the only reason Carrot can track Angua at all. Carrot, who has come off totally unprepared, nearly gets both of them killed before they are rescued by Angua and Gavin. Gaspode does his best to save Carrot's life from attack by what he thinks are "ravening wolves." But Carrot, rather than acknowledging Gaspode's heroic actions, explains his presence to Vimes as "Yes, he . . .helped me get here." Carrot, of course, would have failed miserably in his chase without Gaspode.

And Gaspode is, of course, instrumental in the fight between Wolfgang and Gavin, and goes (along with the others) into the river. And intelligent thought by Angua would have indicated that there was good reason to believe that the howl was started by Gaspode (as indeed it was). But neither Angua nor Carrot make any effort to look for him when they go to bury Gavin. Carrot, when told about Gaspode's apparent fate by Sam, makes his usual banal comment, "Poor little soul. He was a good dog at heart."

Pratchett tried to redeem Carrot (unsuccessfully) by telling us the words which would have sounded trite and wrong on anyone else are somehow redeemed by the fact it is Carrot saying them. They sound trite and banal anyhow, and Pratchett's statement doesn't change anything. Rather it makes Carrot sound like a pompous ass. But this is an indication of Pratchett's failure to redeem Carrot--to make him a viable, useful character.

Carrot, who once was "a man of the city" henceforth is only concerned with his own importance, pleasures and self-image. Significantly Carrot has extremely small roles to play in subsequent books.

Gaspode, on the other hand, has a major role in The Truth where he now steers absolutely clear of all humans other than the canting crew who serve as camouflage for his remarkable skills and talents. No wonder he doesn't trust "sane" normal humans any further after his experiences in 5th Elephant.
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#37
swreader said:
Pratchett tried to redeem Carrot (unsuccessfully) by telling us the words which would have sounded trite and wrong on anyone else are somehow redeemed by the fact it is Carrot saying them. They sound trite and banal anyhow, and Pratchett's statement doesn't change anything. Rather it makes Carrot sound like a pompous ass. But this is an indication of Pratchett's failure to redeem Carrot--to make him a viable, useful character.

Carrot, who once was "a man of the city" henceforth is only concerned with his own importance, pleasures and self-image. Significantly Carrot has extremely small roles to play in subsequent books.
Again, I think this is less about Pterry's attempts to make Carrot a "viable and useful" character and more about his efforts to "knock Carrot of his throne" by humanizing him. Indeed, Carrot is nearly completely useless in TFE and the action in Uberwald would have unfolded nearly the same without him. You stated before that you thought Carrot's sole role was to rescue Vimes. I would say that his more significant role was to give Vimes moral justification for killing Wolfgang (killing him protected Carrot from being attacked at a future time. The Carrot of "Jingo" would easily have been able to dispatch the Wolfgangs of the world. The Carrot of TFE is vulnerable and a hindrance more than a help).

You get a sense here that PTerry was getting a bit nervous with the way Carrot was being built up in previous books (particularly Jingo, where he was basically a superman), and felt that Vimes couldn't continue to evolve as a character as long as he had to 'compete' with Carrot and rely on him for help. Thus, in TFE, Carrot's is "dethroned' by acting like a fool in love. This--along with Angua's encouragement of Carrot to 'act' nasty--makes him human, and, as you said, less appealing.

As you said, with TFE Carrot is finished as a main character. In future novels, he becomes Vimes's true 'second banana,' used more often to demonstrate the occasional investigative ineptitude of the Watch (think of his interviews with De Worde in "The Truth" and Moist in "Going Postal") in non-Watch books. Even in "Thud!" he doesn't really uncover any real answers--Sally and Angua uncover the "smoking gun" evidence.

Personally, I like it better this way. Vimes is a much more appealing character than Carrot.

J-I-B
 

theoldlibrarian

Lance-Corporal
Dec 30, 2009
304
1,775
Dublin, Ireland
#38
Tonyblack said:
In an effort to wrench this discussion away from Country & Western Music... :eek:

What did you all think of Gaspode?

I was disappointed that everyone seemed to forget about him. No one went to look for him - or his body and no one seemed to mention him again.

He was (for me) one of the best characters in this book. A sort of Nobby Nobbs but more intelligent. I was very glad that he made it home safely to A-M - even if no one else seemed to care less.
Thats part of Gaspode's character I suppose. He's tough, street-smart, liked but ultimately he doesn't have anyone. He gets on with life.
 

Verns

Lance-Corporal
Jun 19, 2010
217
1,775
London
#39
There's an awful lot to enjoy in The Fifth Elephant, but I must admit that, whenever I re-read it, I skip the chapters featuring the mental disintegration of Colon, left in charge while Carrot uncharacteristically neglects his duty to follow Angua to Uberwald. Maybe it's just that I don't find anything terribly humourous in watching mental illness unfold, but it also seems unlikely to me that Sergeant Colon, the very essence of phlegm (horrible thought!), would be so quickly reduced to counting sugar-lumps in quite this way.

I was very interested to read others' take on Captain Carrot, particularly some very acute insight into why he has taken a bit of a back seat in subsequent Discworld books. It simply hadn't occurred to me that Terry Pratchett has taken him just about as far as he can. I like Carrot (isn't the whole point in the series that everybody likes Carrot?) but in this book, for the first time, I wondered what Angua sees in him.

Oh, and I agree about the higher than normal body count. I was very sorry to lose Skimmer so early on, as he looked like a character who could have developed into a very interesting, erm, civil servant.

Anyway, accentuating the positive, I loved Lady Sybil in this novel. She really developed as a character, as did her relationship with and utter faith in Sam Vimes. In this novel in particular, it felt as if Terry Pratchett was focusing on the inner grit of aristocrats rather than the more negative qualities that tend to dominate his characterisation of Ankh-Morpork's nobs. I also enjoyed learning more about the subtleties of dwarf culture and the delicate political balance between werewolves, dwarves and trolls. All good stuff.

And I love Gaspode. This is his book, in which he takes a more central role than in Moving Pictures or Truth. Does he remind anyone of a sort of canine version of Maurice? I can't remember where I got this from (the deeper recesses of my imagination, possibly) but he must have been scavenging in the same toxic rubbish dump outside UU as Maurice and the rats.

I can understand that some might feel he was disregarded in being left to find his own way back home at the end of this book, but I don't think that's entirely fair. After all, he was assumed to have lost his life in the fight that led him to fall into the river with Gavin and Wolf. Even if some of the characters realised that it was Gaspode who led the tribute to Gavin, and therefore he must have survived, it was Gaspode who chose not to work his way back to Uberwald and Carrot, but to make his own way home.

Ultimately, any book featuring Sam Vimes is a winner as far as I am concerned. He is my blind spot. Is it VERY daft to have a crush on a fictional character? :oops:
 

sheilaj

Lance-Constable
Jul 27, 2008
50
2,150
#40
i keep reading bits where people say that this or that part "is not humorous"

HELLO??????? Most of life isn't humorous and these are so much more than funny books....All the Pratchett stories are IMO.

As a well known paper whose name escapes me used to say "ALL Human Life is There." Only in Terry's case its not just the humans who have a life and not just the living either.
 

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