SPOILERS The Fifth Elephant Discussion *Spoilers*

[Tonyblack]

**Warning**

This thread is for discussing The Fifth Elephant in some depth. If you haven’t read the book then read on at your own risk – or, better still, go and read the book and join in the fun.

For those of us that are going to join in the discussion, here are a few guidelines:

Please feel free to make comparisons to other Discworld books, making sure you identify the book and the passage you are referring to. Others may not be as familiar with the book you are referencing, so think before you post.

Sometimes we’ll need to agree to disagree – only Terry knows for sure what he was thinking when he wrote the books and individuals members may have widely different interpretations – so try to keep the discussion friendly.

We may be discussing a book that you don’t much care for – don’t be put off joining in the discussion. If you didn’t care for the book, then that in itself is a good topic for discussion.

Please note: there is no time limit to this discussion. Please feel free to add to it at any time - especially if you've just read the book.

And finally:

Please endeavour to keep the discussion on topic. If necessary I will step in and steer it back to the original topic – so no digressions please!

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*


The Fifth Elephant by Terry Pratchett
Originally published 1999

Introduction

Commander Sir Samuel Vimes has been sent on a diplomatic mission to Bonk in Uberwald… Let me rephrase that Sam Vimes and his wife are going to Uberwald for the coronation of the new Low King of the Dwarves. He is surprised to learn that the biggest Dwarf city on the Disc is the one he’s lived in all his life and that makes Ankh-Morpork important. But there are other matters afoot. The loss of contact with the present ambassador, the signing of favourable ‘fat’ treaties with the Dwarves and of course there’s the ever expanding Clacks business.

Still, it should be straightforward. Lord Vetinari is sending along one of his ‘Clerks’ to do all the real work and Sam and Sybil will get the honeymoon that they never got. Of course, Carrot can run the Watch in his absence so there shouldn’t be any problems…

Right!
-------------------------
I like this one, although there are parts that I find incredibly annoying (and I’m not talking about the plethora of Igors either!).

There’s the mystery for a start – a locked door mystery that is pretty straightforward and doesn’t really work in my opinion. Then there’s Carrot. Well apart from the fact that I don’t much like the character anyway, he’s particularly annoying in this one. And then there’s Fred Colon…

But over all I do like the book. It’s very much what I’d call a ‘Vimes’ book rather than a ‘Watch’ one. And we are really seeing an Ankh-Morpork that is almost fully formed for the rest of the series. And of course, Sam Vimes is very good in it. Terry really seems to identify with Vimes and that makes him (in my opinion) possibly the best formed character of the series.

But what did you all think?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Want to write the introduction for the next discussion (Soul Music)? PM me and let me know if you’d like to – first come first served.

Apologies to Raisindot – he volunteered to write the last intro and I forgot to remind him. I’ve ended up having to write it myself – that’ll teach me.

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

I don't find the 5th Elephant compells rereading in the same way many of the others do however I like the fact that we get to a new part of the disc and especially the details on dwarf life in the mines rather than Ankh Morpork.

Although I find Gaspode quite annoying his commentary on human romance is entertaining.

 

[ShadowNinjaCat]

I loved Carrot and Gaspode,didn't find them annoying at all

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Love Gaspode - loathe Carrot, but in FE even Carrot's OK in a needy sort of way and ready to make gestures of the romantic kind by packing in the Watch so he can go after Angua.

I don't think the enigmatic warrior anti-hero casting (sort of High Plains Drifter but with a sword on the cabbage plains) really works too well for him, but it's better than the-king-who-doesn't-want-to-be 'charismatic' hero in A-M. It's a change anyway and Gaspode mostly makes it work

 

[swreader]

There are parts of this book (the Sam/Sybil thread) that are brilliant, and forecast ideas Pratchett will develop later novels. I've read this one many, many times--but while that thread is brilliant, humorous, satiric and Pratchett at his best--the two other threads he uses (rather than chapters to break up the flow of the novel) I've gotten to absolutely loathe.

So, I'm in the peculiar position of saying that this is--all things considered--one of Pratchett's weaker novels. The Colon-Nobby bit with the Watch is almost painful to me. I suspect that's because these comic stereotypes who have been functioning quite well in their limited, accepted roles are suddenly treated as real human beings. And it's a bit painful to watch Colon's degeneration into something resembling a psychiatric breakdown when he is promoted beyond his capabilities. It represents an all too common happening in our world--if only slightly exaggerated. But they stop being comic relief, and in the end throw Carrot's failures as a character into even sharper relief. Even the Igor's (whom Tony can't abide) stop being funny after a while.

I won't take the time in this post to discuss the problem with Carrot, except to note with regret that whatever Terry was trying to do with him as a usable character doesn't work. Either as a human being or a character, the Carrot of this book stinks!

 

[poohcarrot]

Love Carrot! Always have, always will!

 

[raisindot]

So, I'm in the peculiar position of saying that this is--all things considered--one of Pratchett's weaker novels. The Colon-Nobby bit with the Watch is almost painful to me. I suspect that's because these comic stereotypes who have been functioning quite well in their limited, accepted roles are suddenly treated as real human beings. And it's a bit painful to watch Colon's degeneration into something resembling a psychiatric breakdown when he is promoted beyond his capabilities.

I can't even really count the ways that I disagree with you on this. I think TFE is, if not the the best DW novel, certainly among the top 3, even with the desultory Colon-Nobs subplot.


TFE is the first DW book where PTerry truly develops DW as a real world, with real geography, history, politics and mythos. We start to get bits of this in the Lancre books. In "Jingo" we get a Lawrence of Arabia-style view of desert kingdoms. In "Feet of Clay" we learn more about Ankh-Morpork's 'underground' than we have seen previously

But it's not until TFE that PTerry truly develops the "world" part of Discworld. The Uberwald he creates is no longer the Universal Pictures Horror Movie version of "Care Jugulum" but morphs into a culturally rich milleau of races, both sentient and semi-sentient, each with its own history, economic and political battles and conspiracies. The people of Bonk are a full fleshed out version of the 'vampire-dominated' Uberwald city in Carpe Jugulum, with the political structure affecting not the rule of law by intimidation by the powerful over the weak.

Contrasting the "surface dwelling" humans is the rich tapestry of history, mythology and cultural PTerry creates around the dwarfs. When I first read this, I once posted on one of the alt.pratchett boards that I thought the dwarfs, with their emphasis on words, law, suppression of females and factional differences based on the interpretations of dwarfish cultures, were PTerry's allusion to Chasidic Jews, which live in very similar traditions (PTerry answered my post with an email saying me he never thought about this when creating TFE).

The struggle of the Dwarfs is entirely realistic. For once, the humor in these passages--particularly in the scenes where Vimes is conferring with Rhys and Dee--comes from the release of tension rather than from a need for jokes.

And, contrary to what people say about the annoying nature of Carrot in this book, I say that this book represents the transition of true leadership of the Watch from Carrot to Vimes. Even previous books, Carrot continuously displays his kingly qualities--even Vimes is awed by Carrot's supreme self confidence and his ability to effortless win respect. Until TFE, Carrot often serves as Vimes' conscience, keeping the commander's baser impulses in check. Until TFE, Carrot is the behind-the-scenes manipulator of Vetinari, using his leverage as the "undeclared king of Ankh Morpork" to wring further honors for Vimes (and for himself).

The Carrot of TFE transforms shortly after the novel begins. The "old" Carrot begins the book and lasts through the initial investigation into the theft of the Scone of Stone. Once Angua leaves, we begin to see the change in Carrot almost immediately. The 'old' Carrot would never have left the Watch for any reason. The new Carrot does so for reasons he initially doesn't even understand himself, but what we, the reader, realize is, deep down, a matter of love. Carrot is so in love and so obsessed with finding Angua that his normal rock-solid common sense deserts him. He doesn't bring enough food or warm clothes to survive the harsh Uberwald winter. He has no idea what Angua will do when he finds her--if he finds her. He gets himself into trouble and comes close to death, only to be saved from death by Angua herself. Perhaps this is all part of his plan--the beautiful subtlety of PTerry's narrative makes this one of the more touching aspects of the book. But from the moment Angua finds him and rescues him, we know that they will never be separate again, in spite of her surface anger at him.

Now let's turn to Vimes. In "Jingo" Vimes went beyond pure coppering to become a catalyst of world events. He is even more so here. The mystery of the stolen scone (this is not a 'lockbox' mystery at all, since it's quite clear that the thing could easily have been stolen) may seem like an Agatha Christie tale, but its resolution has powerful repercussions for both Uberwald and Ankh-Morpork. Vimes' transformation from a reluctant and often blundering diplomat to a fully confident world-changed who can use his base 'copper's instinct' to overcome nearly all barriers is thoroughly convincing. When he returns to Rhys, Scone of Stone in hand, there is no one in the world who can get in his way.

The other most convincing transformation in TFE is that of Lady Sybil. Until this book, she is more of a parody figure than anything else, the worried, long-suffering wife worrying about her man. Here, she becomes a powerful life force of her own, and her talents, actions and discoveries literally open doors at key moments. For the first time, she becomes his true partner, and, by becoming pregnant, she gives transforms Vimes from someone who sees himself as nothing but a copper to a man who will soon have a larger and meaningful purpose in life, creating the 'ultimate' Vimes of Night Watch and Thud!

There are just so many amazing scenes in this book: The bandit attack, where we first see Vimes's cool-and-collected persona emerge; the entire "game" sequence, ending with the first true emergence of "The Beast" when Vimes is attacking the werewolves in a crazed death battle, shortly before Carrot and Co. save him; the confrontation with the Baroness at the werewolves' castle; Lady Sybil's sudden burst of opera as the gang seeks to bring the Scone back to Rhys; the whole scene where the "authenticity" of the Scone is verified and Dee confesses; the "reward" scene, where Rhys's handshake with Cheery and Detritus literally change the world. And, most of all, the final confrontation between Vimes and Wolfgang, which may be the darkest and most powerful scene in any DW book, and says more about Vimes character than the previous four books put together.

Yes, there are weak bits here. The Colon-Nobby subplot is one of the worst Pterry's ever written. Perhaps he felt he needed to always include Colon/Nobby scenes in Watch stories (as he does in Thud as well), and this one, with its obvious allusion to "The Caine Mutiny," doesn't work at all. The Cherry Orchard/Uncle Vanya bit with the sisters was forced as well.

But, overall, the strengths of this book far outweigh its few weaknesses. It's not 'ha-ha' funny like previous books. It's dark and dramatic, and points the way to the great books that followed it--Thief of Time, The Truth, Night Watch, even Monstrous Regiment, nearly all of which build upon the inventions established here. After TFE, it should be no mystery why PTerry gave up writing Rincewind books and the 'cultural parodies' of Moving Pictures and Soul Music ("Unseen Academicals" would have been a completely different and lesser parody book if it had been written before TFE). While some previous Watch and Witches books had shown glimpses of Pterry's growing maturity and literary depth, TFE is the novel that establishes his mastery of his material.

J-I-B

 

[poohcarrot]

Yippee! J-I-B's gone off on one.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

But it's good to be passionate isn't it - and this is one of the better books to get passionate over. As J-I-B says this is another of Terry's 'watershed' pieces and because of that it's not too well polished in places - but a diamond in the rough is still a diamond

The vampires are still evolving in this after Terry carved a new path for them in Carpe Jugulam - this time they're really getting to grips with their all-consuming bloodlust but transferring it to coffee or tea or iconography or... best of all, because it's just as bloody as the salty claret - politics. :twisted:

And the dwarves too - fundamentalist by any designation you care to assign to the deep-downers (although with the beard thing they are pretty Chasidic naturally )

I'm about halfway between being appalled and applauding the Nobby-Colon dynamic because like swreader was saying, this is a personality breakdown of epic proportions, which is why it's appalling to anyone who been through that themselves or witnessed it in someone they're close to.

It's a breakdown of a different order though, which is where the applauding comes into it, because this is another breakthrough novel for PTerry where he's deliberately taking all his standard characterisations, breaking the mould and reworking them so they stop being primarily comic characters and grow in a different direction that's more subtly satirical and more human all round. Which is why this needed to be done far away as possible from A-M culturally as well as geographically.

Back to Nobby and Colon because this is where I'm on far too familar wobbly ground and I want to get it out of the way. My reading of this is to do with a culture in any industry where advancement is the be and end all for the people in it- and the difference in temperament for want of a better word between the 'doers' and the 'overseers' who 'make sure' it all happens, but couldn't (in far too many cases) make it happen themselves. Reason why? The career ladder - to progress up the greasy pole collecting more rewards and kudos as you go. Whilst the 'doers' - without whom things won't happen at all, because someone has to do something to catch the crims, to bring in the cabbage harvest by tending the fields, to bring the cabbages into the cities - they're not too well paid or regarded at all. Why?

In the Watch books Carrot and Vimes are extraordinary characters and so will not support this theory (I think it's referred to as the Peter Principle - you get promoted until you reach your natural level of incompetence). But Nobby and Colon are already incompetent, but that too comes into this. I'm talking about square pegs in round holes (or vice versa). I'm talking about niches and how they fit. And I'm talking about fish out of water. Sgt Colon's not a great copper by any stretch of the the imagination - but he doesn't need that to follow orders and he's actually a very good sergeant, because he can look after rookies, keep them out of danger etc and he knows how to keep things ticking along and on an even keel so long as nobody's asking him to make decisions or think too much about guiding principles or anything too innovative (because it scares the bejesus out of him). Capt Colon knows he's not supposed to be where he is and he knows that he's all about the little things and running the guardhouse. Asking him to do detectoring or define high level crime-fighting strategy is like asking him to fly. He's not fit for it and knows he isn't, but he likes the idea of the kudos and the fat pay packet. With Vimes and Carrot away, it's an order that he takes the temporary promotion, so of course he does as he's told as always. It's his duty to step up. And then something snaps. So he keeps doing what he knows best and concentrates on all the stupid little things and forgets the big things, because he can't do them any more because he too busy trying to do something he's totally inadequate for and not at all suited to.

Nobby's slightly different in that he's cleverer/sneakier than Fred and he could Sergeant quite well because he'd still have things to exploit which he does by forming the Guild. This is where he stops fitting his own natrural niche, but curiously he's not that unsuccessful at being a union rep and in a way it's because of that, rather than the fact that Fred snubbed him majorly that makes him uncomfortable, because he's lost his best friend and it's not fun anymore. If Fred had made Nobby sergeant, he'd have made far less of a mess of things.

I think what we have here is Terry trying to show us that some things and some people shouldn't change because they wouldn't work as well. Nobby and Colon are a double act - they can't function as well as anything else. Whilst he's tinkering around with all the rest for a purpose which will take Discworld onwards and upwards he's showing us why they're going to stay the way they should be because that's best for them. They're perfect as they are in other words

 

[CrysaniaMajere]

all he said above

8)

And I love love love Sybil in this book.
In previous books you could think , even after Vimes had married her, that he was kind of annoyed with her and about her, but here you can see there's something more, something nice : respect and even admiration.

 

[raisindot]

I think what we have here is Terry trying to show us that some things and some people shouldn't change because they wouldn't work as well. Nobby and Colon are a double act - they can't function as well as anything else. Whilst he's tinkering around with all the rest for a purpose which will take Discworld onwards and upwards he's showing us why they're going to stay the way they should be because that's best for them. They're perfect as they are in other words

You've totally hit it on the head here. Although wealth and heredity do account for "titular" positions in DW, its true 'movers and shakers' are those who rise beyond their cultural and educational limits when given a chance. In Lancre, Granny may not be king (or queen), or well liked, but she's the most powerful person because she's the world's greatest witch. In "Monstrous Regiment," Polly rises above her culture's gender and class distinctions to emerge as someone who, through guile, intelligence, and stubborness, changes her world. Relatively humble merchants like William De Worde (since he is an outcast from his class, he can't be counted as one of the 'entitled') and Moist Von Lipwig leverage their unique talents and circumstances to overcome obstacles and move Ankh Morpork forward into the future. Nutt uses his pathological obsession for self-education to make himself indispensable and ultimately overcome the cultural bias against his species. Mustrum Ridcully obviously had to do something (probably very nasty) to overcome his rural background to become the Archchancellor. Even secondary characters like Harry King and Reacher Gilt emerged from the gutter to claim their niche in the AM marketplace.

And, of course, Vimes is the ultimate world-changer, transforming from a bumbling drunk to the second most powerful man in Ankh Morpork and possibly the most influential person on DW).

Compare these to people like Colon, Nobby, CMOT Dibbler, Groat, and others who have talents in their particular limited areas but rarely rise above their 'station,' and when they do, disaster almost always results.

The compare them to the "impotent aristocracy." Lord Rust and Lord Salachi are complete fools. Mr. Slant can't even manage to pull off a decent coup. Lord Downey can't even get Sam Vimes assassinated. Lord De Worde isn't smart enough to replace Vetinari and nearly gets outted by his son. The Lavishes are incompetent swindlers. These members of the gentry are reactionary, resistant to change, and ultimately powerless in the face of the changes promulgated by the Vimeses, Moists and De Wordes of the world.

In fact, the only two members of the 'hereditary' aristocracy of any value at all are Lady Sybil (and it takes her until TFE to earn this value) and Vetinari.

J-I-B

 

[raisindot]

And I love love love Sybil in this book.
In previous books you could think , even after Vimes had married her, that he was kind of annoyed with her and about her, but here you can see there's something more, something nice : respect and even admiration.

I would hope something even resembling love and attraction--or something close enough to result in her getting pregnant!

And, no, Dotsie, this is NOT an invitation to discuss twinkles and pebbles!



J-I-B

 

[raisindot]

Yippee! J-I-B's gone off on one.

Well, yeah. It was all building up 'cos I had nothing to say about Wintersmith.



J-I-B

 

[swreader]

When I first read 5th Elephant (and for sometime thereafter) it was probably my most favorite of the Pratchett series to that date—precisely because it is the 2nd in the significant Sam/Sybil books of the Watch series. And in spite of its flaws and weaknesses, it still is a favorite of mine.
But It is not, however,

TFE is the first DW book where PTerry truly develops DW as a real world, with real geography, history, politics and mythos. We start to get bits of this in the Lancre books. In "Jingo" we get a Lawrence of Arabia-style view of desert kingdoms. In "Feet of Clay" we learn more about Ankh-Morpork's 'underground' than we have seen previously

But it's not until TFE that PTerry truly develops the "world" part of Discworld. The Uberwald he creates is no longer the Universal Pictures Horror Movie version of "Care Jugulum" but morphs into a culturally rich milleau of races, both sentient and semi-sentient, each with its own history, economic and political battles and conspiracies. The people of Bonk are a full fleshed out version of the 'vampire-dominated' Uberwald city in Carpe Jugulum, with the political structure affecting not the rule of law by intimidation by the powerful over the weak.

anything like J.I.B.'s description of the novel.

For example, prior to this novel, Pratchett has explored the different societies of Genua, Omnia, Tsort and Ephebe, the Agatean Empire, Klatch, the Lost (XXXX) continent, and to some extent Sto Helit and other cities of the plains as well as Lancre. The only place he introduces after this appears to be Borogravia. Nor are the philosophical or political explorations of 5th E a major step forward for Pratchett. Rather Pratchett continues the development of Sam Vimes (probably his favorite character) broadening his horizons by exposing him to a milieu as different from Ankh-Morpork as Klatch had been. And it is that growth in understanding of Sam Vimes (a sort of Pratchettian “everyman”) by his exposure to other cultures and ways of thinking that will be crucial in the later Vimes books (especially Nightwatch and Thud! ).

That 5th E is only incidentally about Carrot & Angua can be deduced from the fact that about two-thirds of the book is spent in the development of the Vimes part of the novel. Of the other third, about two thirds deals with Angua and Carrot, with the remaining fraction left to Colon, Nobby and the remaining Watch. Carrot does not “transform” Sam or the series, although it is possible that this bookrepresents Terry’s last effort to develop Carrot as a rounded full character, an attempt which fails miserably.

Carrot’s primary function in this book is to rescue Sam at the end of Sam's battle with the werewolves. Only by recognizing this very limited function can we understand the almost otherwise inexplicable actions which his character takes. For someone who has always reiterated the principal that “Personal is not the same as important,” Carrot’s actions at the beginning of this novel make no sense at all. In Jingo he watched Angua be carried off on a Klatchian ship with no emotional disturbance. In fact, Vimes comments that he is more distressed about Angua than Carrot is. Further, Carrot knows precisely what will happen if he and Sam are both gone, because he had to take control in Men at Arms when Vetinari stood the Night watch down for a day, and Sam wasn’t available. In fact, that book is the only one of the series in which Carrot seems to have some traces of the royal heritage he is alleged to have when he organizes the city militia, stops the rioting, solves the mystery of Beano's death but manages to get himself shot because, at least in part, he fails to set up a good defensive perimeter. That failure costs Cuddy his life, gets Vetinari, himself and others shot. But he keeps Vimes from killing, or murdering Dr. Cruces, at a time when Sam's Watchman part seems not to have been fully developed.

In Guards! Guards! Carrot functions as our eyes in seeing Ankh-Morpork, but other than that, he is a comic hick from the sticks figure who has all the literal limitations of a dwarf (such as the inability to understand a metaphor). But it is Vetinari, not Carrot, who manipulates Sam into growing into the complex figure of this book. Further, in this book Carrot shows no indication of love for Angua (although one could argue that he wants her back as a possession—like a missing dog). She does not want him along on her return to Uberwald, and he impedes her, causes, indirectly, the death of Gavin and performs no useful or believable function, except for his one crucial act. He knows that Vimes is in Uberwald, and from what Angua says, Carrot is able to deduce that a human, possibly Sam is in trouble. Carrot is there to spear the werewolf that has been chasing Sam up the tree. It is while Sam is recovering on the sled that Sam puts all the pieces together and know what has happened to the Stone of Scone. Vetinari sent Sam as Ambassador precisely because Vetinari knows Sam is able to see through the efforts to confuse him and destroy the balance of power that the old style dwarfs and the werewolves have planned. It is Sam who maintains (with modifications) the balance of power and thus the stability of Beonk and Uberwald.

While Sam does not change the world in this book (Rhys does not reveal that he is a she), there is the beginning of a change that culminates in Thud! . And he does so more in spite of Carrot than because of him. Carrot and Angua’s relationship in this book degenerates—especially when they bury Gavin—to that of dog and master. Angua finds (in her dog-like devotion) his handling of Colon and Nobby masterful. I found it repressible. He, and he alone, has caused the mess in A-M’s watch, but he makes his “old friends,” think it’s their fault. After that, I quite understand his increasingly circumscribed and unflattering use in the later watch books.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Bad insomnia today and so I spent most of that 'resting' by finishing my re-reading of TFE

While Sam does not change the world in this book (Rhys does not reveal that he is a she), there is the beginning of a change that culminates in Thud! . And he does so more in spite of Carrot than because of him.

No secret that Carrot bores the pants off me. However, in this he's a very good 'conscience' device as usual but, also an important plot catalyst in FE. Carrot is in the book mostly to be the chief foil for the Angua sub-plotline. Carrot is not there to 'save' Sam, although that helps the major storyline along - he's there to help Angua irrevocably 'choose' the Watch (and herself) over her family.

Sam is the one sent to Uberwald - along with Cheery, Detritus and Angua. Carrot is not included. Angua is the one who forces Carrot's involvement by leaving with Gavin before Vetinari's decision for her to be a part of the embassy can be assigned to her. Until they rescue Sam from the hunt, it's all about Angua and how she feels about her relations - her werewolf ones, her wolf one and her human 'romantic' one.

When Sybil's taken hostage the 2 plotlines gel for a while, but Carrot's part in that is significant, not because he's reverting to white knight mode trying to take Wolf out but because he gets badly wounded and that's the point at which Angua realises that she's can't abandon their rocky but granite at the core relationship.

Gavin is the other side of it, because he understands Angua's wolf side far better than Carrot. He doesn't go for Wolf because Carrot's making a prat of himself - he does it for Angua because he knows how deeply she feels for the daft over-sized dwarf.

Carrot and Angua’s relationship in this book degenerates—especially when they bury Gavin—to that of dog and master.

No it doesn't and no it's not.

Two things prove it. First, back at the embassy Angua is frantic that Wolf will come back for Carrot. When he asks her why Wolf would want to do that she says - "because he's mine." Classic sibling rivalry and Wolf's seen her terrified that Carrot's dying in the 'final' facedown at the castle.

The other one is when they go to bury Gavin. They're both on edge and Angua's still really irritated with the daft Dwarf, but she's not his 'dog' and he's not her 'master'. The hostilities end (after he asserts his 'dominance' with Gavin's pack ) when she asks who will come for her if she succumbs to her werewolf nature like her brother. Carrot tells her he'll come for her, meaning he'll save her by putting her down. She simply says "Promise?" That's affirmation and commitment and love.

 

[raisindot]

For example, prior to this novel, Pratchett has explored the different societies of Genua, Omnia, Tsort and Ephebe, the Agatean Empire, Klatch, the Lost (XXXX) continent, and to some extent Sto Helit and other cities of the plains as well as Lancre. The only place he introduces after this appears to be Borogravia. Nor are the philosophical or political explorations of 5th E a major step forward for Pratchett.

Sorry, but you've missed it. Books like "Pyramids" and "Small Gods" did 'examine' certain cultures of DW, but these were done in isolation, and neither of these countries have been prominently featured again since that time or again figure prominently in the DW narrative chronology. The world of "The Lost Continent" is little more than an extended goof on 'Down Under.' The Klatch of "Jingo" wasn't much more than a satire of all the old "Foreign Legion" movies. Other than the culture of the Dregs, we get only a sketchy picture of what Klatch is really like. OTOH, In TFE, Pterry creates an Uberwald this is culturally and psychologically rich. He gives the Universal Pictures "monster classes" historical, cultural, and political motivations. He turns the hi-ho lawn ornament perception of dwarfs on its head by instilling in them both their stereotypical traits (love of gold, beards, axes) and an entire cultural and historical tradition that provides a rationale for their mythology. And, contrary to what you said, Rhys DOES reveal himself to be a female--if only in an indirect way and only to Cheery (with Vimes hearing the confession). In no other DW book before this has Pterry created a culture this rich.

Carrot does not “transform” Sam or the series, although it is possible that this bookrepresents Terry’s last effort to develop Carrot as a rounded full character, an attempt which fails miserably. Carrot’s primary function in this book is to rescue Sam at the end of Sam's battle with the werewolves. Only by recognizing this very limited function can we understand the almost otherwise inexplicable actions which his character takes...For someone who has always reiterated the principal that “Personal is not the same as important,” Carrot’s actions at the beginning of this novel make no sense at all. In Jingo he watched Angua be carried off on a Klatchian ship with no emotional disturbance.

Again, you've totally missed the point here. This is the first Watch book where Carrot BECOMES a fully rounded figure, PRECISELY because he, for once, lets his heart repudiate his philosophy of "personal is not the same as important." In Jingo, Angua's ran off as part of her job as a copper. In TFE, Angua takes off for reasons only explained in the pigeon message we never read but must assume is a "Dear Carrot" letter. The "old" Carrot would have let her go. The Carrot of TFE acts like any man obsessed with the love of his life. Most men don't have the strength or resources to try to get their girlfriends back. Carrot thinks he does, and nearly dies when it becomes clear that he no idea how to survive the harshness of an Uberwald winter. Through his interactions with Angua and the wolves, he finally gains an understanding of why Angua is the way she is and why she, rather he, is the "master" here. This expansion of the depths of his character removes him permanently from his "kingly pedastal" making him a much more appealing character. But he ever would have gotten their without Angua teaching him what it means to "think like a wolf."

This, his function is the book is NOT to rescue Vimes from the werewolves. Angua would have rescued him anyway whether Carrot was there or not--she had "smelled" the presence of a human running away from the werewolves and would have discovered it was Vimes very quickly. Neither does Carrot help in any way help Vimes solve the central mystery. He is useless in the battle against Wolfgang, has no involvement in the "detectoring" in the dwarf mines, and doesn't even show up at the "rewards" ceremony. He knows he is useless here and, more importantly, he knows what should be most important to him, and it's personal.

From TFE on, we never see Carrot in a dominant role again. In past books, he was responsible for most of Vimes' success. Even Vimes is in awe of his physical and mortal strength and his amazing ability to make everyone "bow down" to him. In all future books, Carrot is little more than an investigator or right hand man. I think this is intentional on PTerry's part--in expanding the role and importance of Vimes, the importance of Carrot needed to be diminished--there could only be one true "commander of the Watch"

While Sam does not change the world in this book (Rhys does not reveal that he is a she), there is the beginning of a change that culminates in Thud! . And he does so more in spite of Carrot than because of him. Carrot and Angua’s relationship in this book degenerates—especially when they bury Gavin—to that of dog and master. Angua finds (in her dog-like devotion) his handling of Colon and Nobby masterful. I found it repressible. He, and he alone, has caused the mess in A-M’s watch, but he makes his “old friends,” think it’s their fault. After that, I quite understand his increasingly circumscribed and unflattering use in the later watch books.

Once again, you've missed it. Vimes absolutely DOES change the world, Without him, the werewolves would have succeeded. Rhys would not have become king and a civil war would have erupted among the dwarfs that might have extended all the way to AM. Without Sam, Rhys's world-changing handshakes would not have been possible, and, thus, female dwarfs would have been returned to chainmail and the wars with the trolls would have continued indefinitely. As Vimes changes the world, he changes himself, from the "Vetinari's terrier" of previous books to the extremely powerful diplomatic problem solver who becomes the one person in the world all races turn to to uncover "the truth," even if they must manipulate him into initiating the pursuit.

And while Angua may finally understand and accept her role as Carrot's dog, what's wrong with this? DW is a male-dominated society, with very few human women in positions of power. If Angua has become the dog, than this is her choice, not something that has been imposed upon here. By saving Carrot's life, she earned the right to decide how she wanted to relate to him. In werewolf terms, being someone's dog is perhaps the ultimate expression of love, so why look at it from a roundworld point of view?

And Carrot's manipulation of Fred and Nobby, while demonstrating his new-found "nastiness," is completely understandable given what he;s learned in this adventure. The great irony here is that, except for the one time Carrot and Vetinari obliquely discussed Carrot's claim to kingship in Men at Arms, Carrot never explicitly exploits the "common knowledge" that he was the undeclared king until this very last scene, when he points his sword at Colon and Nobby. The "old" Carrot would never have done this. The Carrot of TFE, as Granny might say, has "learned."

J-I-B

 

[Tonyblack]

Sorry that I haven't joined in on this one much - I've been preoccupied.

I really think that Terry tried to make Carrot interesting in this one - and failed. To me that's why Carrot has played such a minor role in subsequent books. The Carrot/Anqua relationship has never really been developed since this book either. I think we'l l have to agree to disagree on that one.

This is the second book in the series to feature Igors - but not the last. There has been at least one Igor in every Discworld book since - not counting the Tiffany series.

I have a real problem with the Igors as (I know they are supposed to be funny) they don't make any sense to me. Why would these characters, who obviously care deeply about people, work for such monsters as the werewolves?

And what could they possibly do for the werewolves?

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

Do they actually care about people though? They enjoy practicing their art which for many of them involves repairing and improving human bodies (certainly their own though some - Jeremy's in Thief of Time - have other primary skills). They show a limited loyalty to their masters. But other than generally being on the side of "good" and not wanting to waste valuable parts there's not a huge amount of caring shown as far as I can recall.

 

[BatrickPatrick]

I have a real problem with the Igors as (I know they are supposed to be funny) they don't make any sense to me. Why would these characters, who obviously care deeply about people, work for such monsters as the werewolves?

It'th tradithional?

 

[poohcarrot]

I'm going to do a J-I-B and plead the Fifth (Elephant) Amendment on this discussion.I don't have much to say about it.

It's an enjoyable book, but not one I'd recommend for a first introduction to Discworld.