SPOILERS The Last Hero Discussion *Spoilers*

[poohcarrot]

Short book. Short discussion.

 

[Tonyblack]

It was a short book.

 

[rockershovel]

I enjoyed Last Hero and I particularly liked the illustrations.

I have to admit that I don't "do" the whole collector thing, I also tend to buy books as I see fit - I didn't much care for Hatful of Sky and so have only read the remaining Tiffany ones as I find them, left behind by my predecessors on vessels and rigs ( it is usual to leave behind whatever you read on the plane on the way out ).

My copy of Carpe Jugulum has been lost, mislaid or tidied away somewhere and I haven't replaced it.

So, I only have a paperback edition which was discounted somewhere or other. I don't believe it would stand without the illustrations, too short and not enough depth.

 

[Tonyblack]

As I think I said earlier - Terry seems to have used this book to say goodbye to the 'old' Discworld. I think the 'new' Discworld, arguably started in the previous book, The Truth. It's almost as if the time period on DW has moved from Regency to Victorian and subsequent books are somewhat more 'modern' in their outlook.

The Gods don't really play a significant part in the books after this one and neither do we really see anything of heroes. Those are parts of the DW world that Terry is laying to rest.

The wizards have been becoming more scientific in their approach to the world and machines are playing a larger part.

We've probably seen the last of Leonard too.

 

[Tonyblack]

You now have one week to read or reread Mort for the discussion starting on Monday 7th March.

 

[Birthday]

I loved it! especially the swamp dragons from the moon! Although I do agree that it had limited detail.

 

[Tonyblack]

I've just finished watching this book being read on Mark Reads. This book basically and literally, kills off the Medieval parts of Discworld. With the death of the "heroes" we see the last of that type of Fantasy in the series (I think). It's also (again I think) the last time the gods have any real influence on the characters. Gods are mentioned in future books, but they are not playing games with mortals.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Oh? *puzzled* I'm not sure if Cohen and the Silver Horde really "die", since they then go off to have more adventures - only somewhere else (in another world, perhaps?)

Nevertheless, obviously, Cohen and the gang don't get to interfere on the Discworld again - and neither do the gods, which is just as well, I think. The unlimited power of even just one god is a frightening and unpredictable thing (see Om and the gang in "Small Gods", for instance). For the good of everyone, it's best that the gods stopped interfering.

Also, I don't think it's the last time that supernatural beings on par with the gods - semi-deities at least - have been seen on the Disc (see The Duchess and "Wazzer" Goom in "Monstrous Regiment", or the Wintersmith, the Summer Lady and Tiffany in "Wintersmith"). I'm not sure if we see anything like them after "Wintersmith", although - arguably - Dick Simnel's train in "Raising Steam" also has a kind of sapience? It's hard to know exactly what to call it, although it definitely knows who's on its side and who isn't, and it can defend itself if necessary. *shrug* I wouldn't exactly call it a deity, but it's certainly much more than just a mechanical object. What do you think?

 

[Tonyblack]

I think Cohen and co. really did die - they just chose to continue their adventure rather than being taken off to the feasting halls. They have moved to a supernatural plane where their bodies can continue, rather than dying ingloriously of old age. Without going into detail and possible spoilers for later books - the gods may still exist, but they don't play games with human lives in such an obvious way that they do in this book and previous ones (especially Rincewind stories).

 

[=Tamar]

This is pretty much the last gasp for the gods as players, though there are a few aftershocks. (Mixed metaphors, anyone?) With the Industrial Revolution sequence coming up, there's more of a steampunk/Frankenstein element. As RathDarkblade pointed out, the uncertainty of the incipient sapience of the various mechanisms takes the place of the open malevolence of the gods.

 

[RathDarkblade]

...the gods may still exist, but they don't play games with human lives in such an obvious way that they do in this book and previous ones (especially Rincewind stories).

...the uncertainty of the incipient sapience of the various mechanisms takes the place of the open malevolence of the gods.

Ah! *set.LightBulb = On* Tony and =Tamar, I think your replies - especially Tony's reference to how the gods interfere in obvious ways in the Rincewind stories, and =Tamar's phrase "the open malevolence of the gods" - just gave me an idea. For years and years, I very much enjoyed the Rincewind stories. (Yes, I know that they're not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay). It's just that they reminded me of something that I couldn't put my finger on.

Now I think I know what it was: Rincewind and his adventures find their mirror in Roundworld's various mythologies - for instance, the stories of Enkidu, Odysseus and so on. Think about it: in just about all Roundworld mythologies, the gods are either malevolent forces, or they just don't care. This finds its mirror on the Discworld. Rincewind, in spite of his cowardliness, is basically a mirror of the eternal hero (e.g. Enkidu, Odysseus, Siegfried etc.) Naturally, Rincewind is faced with different problems and solves them in different ways - but the basic plot is very similar: protagonist is faced with an overarching problem, coupled with the fact that he cannot and/or does not rely on otherworldly interference to solve it. (Naturally, quite a few Greek heroes - e.g. Theseus, Perseus etc. - don't qualify, because they got supernatural assistance).

So Rincewind, Twoflower, Cohen etc. are a part of Discworld mythology. No wonder that they don't have much of a place in the later books - mythology involves deities, and since deities aren't involved, there is no place for Rincewind et al. (other than as spear carriers or supporting players).

What do you think? Am I speaking rubbish? (Personally, it sounds to me like I'm trying to build a house of cards on a foundation that may or may not be there... but it could be). *G*

 

[Tonyblack]

Rincewind has long been a sort of plot device that allowed Terry to visit places on the Disc that the likes of Vimes, for example, would find it difficult to get to. He is almost an indestructible cartoon character that can be thrown across continents, into different dimensions and across space and time. We the readers understand this to a degree and accept it of this character, where we would be more sceptical of others.

The interesting twist in The Last Hero is that, although Rincewind gets to go to strange places, it's by almost believable means and with characters that are more conventional - Leonard, Carrot and the Librarian. Although Rincewind appears in at least one more book, he is never used in the same way again.

 

[=Tamar]

The mythic connection continues. Rincewind appears in TSoD, where the UU faculty are busy accidentally creating a universe and meddling with it... acting very much like Discworld gods, in fact. The Dean even claims the role. Rincewind, according to Sir pTerry, has had his lifetimer so twisted by his travels that even Death isn't sure how old Rincewind is, let alone when he might die. Given one scene in Eric, it's possible that Rincewind is genuinely immortal, though he knows enough not to depend on it.

 

[RathDarkblade]

OK... so if I understand this, Tony, I guess my hypothesis is rubbish? But =Tamar, it's possible that I might not be talking complete tosh?

 

[Tonyblack]

Terry's books have always been a source of discussion - hence the popularity of these discussions. The books are often vague and have a great deal of depth to the point where readers will often disagree. It is one of the things that makes Terry's books so masterful. I don't know if my thoughts on the subject are correct - only Terry knew for sure and he rarely ever admitted to the hidden plot points.