SPOILERS The Last Hero Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter Tonyblack
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I enjoyed Last Hero and I particularly liked the illustrations.
I have to admit that I don't "do" the whole collector thing, I also tend to buy books as I see fit - I didn't much care for Hatful of Sky and so have only read the remaining Tiffany ones as I find them, left behind by my predecessors on vessels and rigs ( it is usual to leave behind whatever you read on the plane on the way out ).
My copy of Carpe Jugulum has been lost, mislaid or tidied away somewhere and I haven't replaced it.
So, I only have a paperback edition which was discounted somewhere or other. I don't believe it would stand without the illustrations, too short and not enough depth.
I have to admit that I don't "do" the whole collector thing, I also tend to buy books as I see fit - I didn't much care for Hatful of Sky and so have only read the remaining Tiffany ones as I find them, left behind by my predecessors on vessels and rigs ( it is usual to leave behind whatever you read on the plane on the way out ).
My copy of Carpe Jugulum has been lost, mislaid or tidied away somewhere and I haven't replaced it.
So, I only have a paperback edition which was discounted somewhere or other. I don't believe it would stand without the illustrations, too short and not enough depth.
As I think I said earlier - Terry seems to have used this book to say goodbye to the 'old' Discworld. I think the 'new' Discworld, arguably started in the previous book, The Truth. It's almost as if the time period on DW has moved from Regency to Victorian and subsequent books are somewhat more 'modern' in their outlook.
The Gods don't really play a significant part in the books after this one and neither do we really see anything of heroes. Those are parts of the DW world that Terry is laying to rest.
The wizards have been becoming more scientific in their approach to the world and machines are playing a larger part.
We've probably seen the last of Leonard too.
The Gods don't really play a significant part in the books after this one and neither do we really see anything of heroes. Those are parts of the DW world that Terry is laying to rest.
The wizards have been becoming more scientific in their approach to the world and machines are playing a larger part.
We've probably seen the last of Leonard too.
I've just finished watching this book being read on Mark Reads. This book basically and literally, kills off the Medieval parts of Discworld. With the death of the "heroes" we see the last of that type of Fantasy in the series (I think). It's also (again I think) the last time the gods have any real influence on the characters. Gods are mentioned in future books, but they are not playing games with mortals.
Oh? *puzzled* I'm not sure if Cohen and the Silver Horde really "die", since they then go off to have more adventures - only somewhere else (in another world, perhaps?)
Nevertheless, obviously, Cohen and the gang don't get to interfere on the Discworld again - and neither do the gods, which is just as well, I think. The unlimited power of even just one god is a frightening and unpredictable thing (see Om and the gang in "Small Gods", for instance). For the good of everyone, it's best that the gods stopped interfering.
Also, I don't think it's the last time that supernatural beings on par with the gods - semi-deities at least - have been seen on the Disc (see The Duchess and "Wazzer" Goom in "Monstrous Regiment", or the Wintersmith, the Summer Lady and Tiffany in "Wintersmith"). I'm not sure if we see anything like them after "Wintersmith", although - arguably - Dick Simnel's train in "Raising Steam" also has a kind of sapience? It's hard to know exactly what to call it, although it definitely knows who's on its side and who isn't, and it can defend itself if necessary. *shrug* I wouldn't exactly call it a deity, but it's certainly much more than just a mechanical object. What do you think?
Nevertheless, obviously, Cohen and the gang don't get to interfere on the Discworld again - and neither do the gods, which is just as well, I think. The unlimited power of even just one god is a frightening and unpredictable thing (see Om and the gang in "Small Gods", for instance). For the good of everyone, it's best that the gods stopped interfering.
Also, I don't think it's the last time that supernatural beings on par with the gods - semi-deities at least - have been seen on the Disc (see The Duchess and "Wazzer" Goom in "Monstrous Regiment", or the Wintersmith, the Summer Lady and Tiffany in "Wintersmith"). I'm not sure if we see anything like them after "Wintersmith", although - arguably - Dick Simnel's train in "Raising Steam" also has a kind of sapience? It's hard to know exactly what to call it, although it definitely knows who's on its side and who isn't, and it can defend itself if necessary. *shrug* I wouldn't exactly call it a deity, but it's certainly much more than just a mechanical object. What do you think?
I think Cohen and co. really did die - they just chose to continue their adventure rather than being taken off to the feasting halls. They have moved to a supernatural plane where their bodies can continue, rather than dying ingloriously of old age. Without going into detail and possible spoilers for later books - the gods may still exist, but they don't play games with human lives in such an obvious way that they do in this book and previous ones (especially Rincewind stories).
This is pretty much the last gasp for the gods as players, though there are a few aftershocks. (Mixed metaphors, anyone?) With the Industrial Revolution sequence coming up, there's more of a steampunk/Frankenstein element. As RathDarkblade pointed out, the uncertainty of the incipient sapience of the various mechanisms takes the place of the open malevolence of the gods.
Ah! *set.LightBulb = On* Tony and =Tamar, I think your replies - especially Tony's reference to how the gods interfere in obvious ways in the Rincewind stories, and =Tamar's phrase "the open malevolence of the gods" - just gave me an idea. For years and years, I very much enjoyed the Rincewind stories. (Yes, I know that they're not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay). It's just that they reminded me of something that I couldn't put my finger on.
Now I think I know what it was: Rincewind and his adventures find their mirror in Roundworld's various mythologies - for instance, the stories of Enkidu, Odysseus and so on. Think about it: in just about all Roundworld mythologies, the gods are either malevolent forces, or they just don't care. This finds its mirror on the Discworld. Rincewind, in spite of his cowardliness, is basically a mirror of the eternal hero (e.g. Enkidu, Odysseus, Siegfried etc.) Naturally, Rincewind is faced with different problems and solves them in different ways - but the basic plot is very similar: protagonist is faced with an overarching problem, coupled with the fact that he cannot and/or does not rely on otherworldly interference to solve it. (Naturally, quite a few Greek heroes - e.g. Theseus, Perseus etc. - don't qualify, because they got supernatural assistance).
So Rincewind, Twoflower, Cohen etc. are a part of Discworld mythology. No wonder that they don't have much of a place in the later books - mythology involves deities, and since deities aren't involved, there is no place for Rincewind et al. (other than as spear carriers or supporting players).
What do you think? Am I speaking rubbish? (Personally, it sounds to me like I'm trying to build a house of cards on a foundation that may or may not be there... but it could be). *G*
Now I think I know what it was: Rincewind and his adventures find their mirror in Roundworld's various mythologies - for instance, the stories of Enkidu, Odysseus and so on. Think about it: in just about all Roundworld mythologies, the gods are either malevolent forces, or they just don't care. This finds its mirror on the Discworld. Rincewind, in spite of his cowardliness, is basically a mirror of the eternal hero (e.g. Enkidu, Odysseus, Siegfried etc.) Naturally, Rincewind is faced with different problems and solves them in different ways - but the basic plot is very similar: protagonist is faced with an overarching problem, coupled with the fact that he cannot and/or does not rely on otherworldly interference to solve it. (Naturally, quite a few Greek heroes - e.g. Theseus, Perseus etc. - don't qualify, because they got supernatural assistance).
So Rincewind, Twoflower, Cohen etc. are a part of Discworld mythology. No wonder that they don't have much of a place in the later books - mythology involves deities, and since deities aren't involved, there is no place for Rincewind et al. (other than as spear carriers or supporting players).
What do you think? Am I speaking rubbish? (Personally, it sounds to me like I'm trying to build a house of cards on a foundation that may or may not be there... but it could be). *G*
Rincewind has long been a sort of plot device that allowed Terry to visit places on the Disc that the likes of Vimes, for example, would find it difficult to get to. He is almost an indestructible cartoon character that can be thrown across continents, into different dimensions and across space and time. We the readers understand this to a degree and accept it of this character, where we would be more sceptical of others.
The interesting twist in The Last Hero is that, although Rincewind gets to go to strange places, it's by almost believable means and with characters that are more conventional - Leonard, Carrot and the Librarian. Although Rincewind appears in at least one more book, he is never used in the same way again.
The interesting twist in The Last Hero is that, although Rincewind gets to go to strange places, it's by almost believable means and with characters that are more conventional - Leonard, Carrot and the Librarian. Although Rincewind appears in at least one more book, he is never used in the same way again.
The mythic connection continues. Rincewind appears in TSoD, where the UU faculty are busy accidentally creating a universe and meddling with it... acting very much like Discworld gods, in fact. The Dean even claims the role. Rincewind, according to Sir pTerry, has had his lifetimer so twisted by his travels that even Death isn't sure how old Rincewind is, let alone when he might die. Given one scene in Eric, it's possible that Rincewind is genuinely immortal, though he knows enough not to depend on it.
Terry's books have always been a source of discussion - hence the popularity of these discussions. The books are often vague and have a great deal of depth to the point where readers will often disagree. It is one of the things that makes Terry's books so masterful. I don't know if my thoughts on the subject are correct - only Terry knew for sure and he rarely ever admitted to the hidden plot points.
Here's a new hypothesis for "Where is the RL location of...?" etc...
If Cohen and his Silver Horde are representatives of the Vikings (and let's be honest, the Discworld books first saw light in the UK, and the Vikings were always seen as at least somewhat "barbaric" - so why wouldn't they be?), then the unnamed terrain on the way to Cori Celesti is possibly Greenland.
Why? Because the Silver Horde complain about walrus for dinner. (One of them says "Nice walrus -- er, steak, anyone?" and Mad Hamish complains: "Bloody walrus again?")
Walrus ivory was one of Greenland's most famous mediaeval exports. Up until the 1300s, when elephant ivory started becoming fashionable, walrus ivory was desirable and very expensive. The Greenland Norse, especially in the Northern Hunting Ground (on the northwest side of Greenland) ate more than walrus (e.g. arctic hare, arctic fox polar bear and whale when they could get them), but walrus is what they're famous for.
Conclusion: Cori Celesti is in Greenland! What do you think, hmm?
If Cohen and his Silver Horde are representatives of the Vikings (and let's be honest, the Discworld books first saw light in the UK, and the Vikings were always seen as at least somewhat "barbaric" - so why wouldn't they be?), then the unnamed terrain on the way to Cori Celesti is possibly Greenland.
Why? Because the Silver Horde complain about walrus for dinner. (One of them says "Nice walrus -- er, steak, anyone?" and Mad Hamish complains: "Bloody walrus again?")
Walrus ivory was one of Greenland's most famous mediaeval exports. Up until the 1300s, when elephant ivory started becoming fashionable, walrus ivory was desirable and very expensive. The Greenland Norse, especially in the Northern Hunting Ground (on the northwest side of Greenland) ate more than walrus (e.g. arctic hare, arctic fox polar bear and whale when they could get them), but walrus is what they're famous for.
Conclusion: Cori Celesti is in Greenland!
What do you think, hmm?
Hmm. I wasn't sure, so I looked it up. According to google:
1. Both Norway and Greenland have a sizeable population of Atlantic Walrus (about 4,000 to 5,000 each). By contrast, Iceland has no domestic walrus at all; they were all hunted by the end of the 1200s.
2. Yes, Norway is famous for the mountains that separate it from Sweden. (Denmark is relatively flat). But Greenland has extensive and rugged mountain ranges too, particularly along its eastern and western coasts.
Speaking of which, Iceland has a vast number of mountains (at least 4,000 of them, many of them volcanoes, but some topped with glaciers or snow).
Coming back to Discworld, Truckle the Uncivil says that the Horde "should've stopped off at Whale Bay. Cold days, freezing nights -- wonderful saga country", to which Cohen says "Yeah, if you like blubber." Maybe Whale Bay is Iceland (specifically Reykjavik)? Iceland is also quite cold for much of the year (less than 10 C/50 F in summer, from June to August), but freezing during winter -- December to February has highs of about 32-36 F, or 0 to 2 C.
Just wondering! The Silver Horde immediately makes me think "medieval", which is why I think "Vikings", that's all.
1. Both Norway and Greenland have a sizeable population of Atlantic Walrus (about 4,000 to 5,000 each). By contrast, Iceland has no domestic walrus at all; they were all hunted by the end of the 1200s.
2. Yes, Norway is famous for the mountains that separate it from Sweden. (Denmark is relatively flat). But Greenland has extensive and rugged mountain ranges too, particularly along its eastern and western coasts.
Speaking of which, Iceland has a vast number of mountains (at least 4,000 of them, many of them volcanoes, but some topped with glaciers or snow).
Coming back to Discworld, Truckle the Uncivil says that the Horde "should've stopped off at Whale Bay. Cold days, freezing nights -- wonderful saga country", to which Cohen says "Yeah, if you like blubber."
Maybe Whale Bay is Iceland (specifically Reykjavik)? Iceland is also quite cold for much of the year (less than 10 C/50 F in summer, from June to August), but freezing during winter -- December to February has highs of about 32-36 F, or 0 to 2 C. Just wondering! The Silver Horde immediately makes me think "medieval", which is why I think "Vikings", that's all.
Oh, and sorry for the necro-post (15 years late! Woo!)
The book's final line puzzled me a little, until I thought: "What would people on the Disc say about Cohen, now that he's no longer 'there'?" and immediately I thought of the answer. Nobody would remember who the minstrel was - not even the minstrel knows what his name is (he tells Evil Harry "I'm just the singer"), but the songs and stories about Cohen and the Horde will be all that's left.
So in fact, the theme of the book isn't all about humanity defying fate/the gods. The theme is: "What is a hero? What is heroism?"
Consider: towards the start of the book, Cohen is "rememb'rin'" some poor bloke who was buried in the snow. He doesn't know anything about him - his name, if he did any mighty deeds, etc. - but he can still remember him. At the end of the book, that exactly happens to Cohen and the Horde.
There are also comments throughout the book about the nature of heroism, especially between Vetinari and Mr. Betteridge of the Guild of Historians. (He is named after Pratchett’s own former school history teacher, Stan Betteridge; see this article from The Telegraph. and this one from the Bucks Free Press. Two other characters, Ponder Stibbons and Evil Harry Dread, are also cheekily named after former teachers).
There's also a much more obvious discussion about heroism when Carrot confronts the Horde, culminating in Cohen's line: "To die for thirty dollars a month, a man has to be either very, very stupid or very, very brave..."
Lastly: now that Terry's been gone for over 10 years, the line about the singer and the song is now much more poignant. How long, I wonder in my more pessimistic moments, will it be before Terry is forgotten?
Agreed. I also enjoyed the Before and After pictures of the Discworld (after the loss of magic). Is it a stark reference to what the Earth might be after a nuclear war?
The book's final line puzzled me a little, until I thought: "What would people on the Disc say about Cohen, now that he's no longer 'there'?" and immediately I thought of the answer. Nobody would remember who the minstrel was - not even the minstrel knows what his name is (he tells Evil Harry "I'm just the singer"), but the songs and stories about Cohen and the Horde will be all that's left.
So in fact, the theme of the book isn't all about humanity defying fate/the gods. The theme is: "What is a hero? What is heroism?"
Consider: towards the start of the book, Cohen is "rememb'rin'" some poor bloke who was buried in the snow. He doesn't know anything about him - his name, if he did any mighty deeds, etc. - but he can still remember him. At the end of the book, that exactly happens to Cohen and the Horde.
There are also comments throughout the book about the nature of heroism, especially between Vetinari and Mr. Betteridge of the Guild of Historians. (He is named after Pratchett’s own former school history teacher, Stan Betteridge; see this article from The Telegraph. and this one from the Bucks Free Press.
Two other characters, Ponder Stibbons and Evil Harry Dread, are also cheekily named after former teachers).There's also a much more obvious discussion about heroism when Carrot confronts the Horde, culminating in Cohen's line: "To die for thirty dollars a month, a man has to be either very, very stupid or very, very brave..."
Lastly: now that Terry's been gone for over 10 years, the line about the singer and the song is now much more poignant. How long, I wonder in my more pessimistic moments, will it be before Terry is forgotten?
Which takes me back to favourite illustrations. 
Mine is actually two - it's sort of the Before and After pictures of the minstrel. That picture of him in rags sitting on the rock playing his homemade lyre is excellent in my opinion.
Mine is actually two - it's sort of the Before and After pictures of the minstrel. That picture of him in rags sitting on the rock playing his homemade lyre is excellent in my opinion.