SPOILERS The Shepherd's Crown WARNING Spoilers

Dotsie · Sep 28, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

I loved the first part of the book, but agree with comments that the second half feels unfinished (well, because it is). I don't think this is anything to do with the quality of Terry's writing though, or an indication of his illness, but rather that he didn't have time. I think it could have been wonderful. I also think that the editing could have been better.

AFAIC Raisin can write what he likes, or anyone else who doesn't like it!

It doesn't spoil my enjoyment of anything just because someone else disagrees, and I prefer a discussion board to an agreement board any day.

raisindot · Sep 28, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Dotsie said:

Agreed, although if the Guardian's Jonathan Jones ever dared show his face around here he'd find himself much like the proverbial mad scientist facing a mob of pitchfork and hemp-wielding villagers (myself included).

Tonyblack · Sep 28, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Some thoughts while I'm on my reread.

I wondered the first time around, why on earth Granny left her cottage and place in the witch hierarchy to Tiffany. She must have known that Tiffany couldn't take on Granny's responsibilities on top of her own. My feeling now is that this is exactly why Granny did this. It was to stop any squabbling between the other witches (Mrs Earwig) and because she knew that Tiffany would have to assign the cottage to someone that she could trust. As Granny obviously had a great deal of faith in Tiffany's abilities, she knew that Tiffany wouldn't let her down. It also served to show Tiffany exactly where her real place was - the Chalk.

Also, I was pleased with the way Terry handled the situation between Tiffany and Preston. I was a little concerned that this book would involve Tiffany trying to sort out her feeling for Preston. But by having them both immersed in their chosen professions, he effectively sidestepped the matter and left it to the reader to decide what will happen between the couple. In a way I see Tiffany and Preston a little like Ridcully and Granny. Possibly they could and would have gotten together, but ultimately they have put their careers first.

This book definitely bears a second read.

mirandashell · Sep 28, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

I'm planning on reading it again. Just getting the nerve together to do it! LOL!

raisindot · Sep 28, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Tonyblack said:

That makes a lot of sense. Although I think that Tiffany always knew her place was in the Chalk. I would think it was more than Granny knew that when she died her "protection" against the Elves would go away, and that Tiffany was the best person to lead the "defense" against them, but she wouldn't have been able to be that leader unless Granny had somehow posthumously "anointed" her in that role. Maybe that was Granny's final "challenge" to Tiffany--she wanted to teach Tiffany that for a new world of railways and progress a new kind of witch was needed--one that could muster and lead other witches in a common cause--in short, the opposite of Granny (and Tiffany in the earlier books) who always solved the "big challenges" on her own.

Tonyblack · Sep 28, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Yes, that thought had crossed my mind as well. We know there's a weak point in Lancre and there also seems to be a weak point on the Chalk. I'm not sure if Granny was aware of the one on the Chalk. I'm not sure if I have mentioned this already, but this book seems to be almost the opposite of The Lord of the Rings. In LOTR Tolkien was writing about the destruction of the England he knew by the rise of industry. In Pratchett's book it was the rise of industry and the use of iron that was always going to defeat the elves. The Discworld has now, effectively been ringed with iron thanks to the railway. People use iron and steel all the time and, although they may try, the elves' plans on invasion are diminishing. Now I think of it, wasn't the ascent of humans and their industry, the reason Tolkien's elves were also diminished?

I'll write more on this as I progress through the reread. I need to confirm a few things first.

feanor · Oct 1, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Hey All...

Further to my last appearance, I want to apologise to any that I 'Spoiled' the book for. It was truly not meant. I am not, whatever the mad collector calls me, 'an Inconsiderate Fool'. I am neither. I truly thought that most of you would have known about what I posted, and if anyone didn't please excuse me again.

As to the 'he's dead, get over it' comment. That was a little harsh maybe in hindsight. Although he's gone, there's still the considerable canon of work, and I don't see why we can't postulate different endings or scenarios, or maybe have a go at a little 'fan-fiction' to keep DW alive. Even though what we have is brilliant. I'm a member of the Tomb-Raider (classics) game playing community, and the Level editor software in TR 2 has been used to great effect to write new stories for Lara Croft to go forth on. And a very rich seam it is proving to be. Why not sit dreaming and write some ideas down ?

Best, Stu.

PS, Has anyone seen the video of neil Gaiman (?) or was it rob ? talking about the proposed twist in the books ending as regards 'You' the cat ?

Apols again.

Tonyblack · Oct 1, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

No worries - we don't hold grudges here. Well, I don't, anyway.

raisindot · Oct 1, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

feanor said:

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS

I've read the article. Most would probably disagree with me, but I'm glad that Pterry's original "You the Cat" ending never made it to the final book. It would have been hopelessly sentimental and heavy-handed. My guess is that Pterry felt it was a necessary "reveal all" for YA readers who weren't aware of Granny's borrowing capabilities.

I think You's characterization in the finished book does a much better (and far more subtle) job of suggesting Granny's lingering presence

I think also interesting in the article was Gaiman's claim that Pterry told him he never wanted the unfinished book to be published and would have preferred that everything he left undone to be crushed by a steamroller.

TheAnts · Oct 2, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Evening all I'm just reading Raising Steam again, which has shed some light on the writing of TSC for me.

I thought that The Shepherd's Crown was a book better polished and edited than Raising Steam, although still full of the sense that Terry was no longer fully in control of his material the way he had been a few years earlier. Now that I'm back in Raising Steam, I've got past that and can read it as a book that hasn't been completed, and apart from the odd clunker, it doesn't matter and it's also a bit of an insight into how Terry wrote. My guess is that a lot of writers write bits here and bits there and then pull them together, but you don't often get to read a book which is just finished enough that you can see this happening.

I had no sense that he was losing it until Raising Steam, although ISWM was a bit didactic.

There's an awful lot that I think he would have ironed out if he had had the time and the mental energy left to do it, but once I take that into account, there's the story there, and all sorts of nourishing good bits.

The worst bit (emotionally) in TSC isn't Granny dying ... she's a mortal, she knew it was coming AND she managed to add a twist I wasn't expecting to her darn "I Aint Dead" card :laugh:

... the worst bit was reading Rob's afterword with the list of ideas which will now never be written. Waily!

As for the Johnathan Jones person, giving himself points in public for the books he reads tell you enough. And it's not just the Daily Mail that publishes stuff to get a rise out of readers. Maybe in time he will learn compassion for his fellow inferior being, but maybe not. I've long had a feeling that Terry based his elves on people he didn't much care for that he met at publishers' parties.

BTW I have never "got" why the elf queen and the elf king were living separate lives (other than mild marital boredom reasons). Terry bases some of his stuff on traditions, but I don't recognise that one. Any ideas?

TheAnts · Oct 2, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown - No Spoilers in this thread please

feanor said:

OK I have to say it somewhere ... I don't like the portrait cover. Where has her head above eye level gone? It must be pointy. The eyes look out of proportion for human eyes. The version on the back cover is much better, I think.

OTOH he has given her the green dress which she chose for herself and then abandoned at the end of ISWM when she put the "uniform" on. I like that!

raisindot · Oct 2, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

TheAnts said:

You stay married for a thousand years and see how much time you still want to spend with your spouse! :laugh:

I actually do think that's part of it. I also think that the King is probably gay and his relationship with the queen is more of an mythologicalamabob thing than one based on actual love. We really don't know whether the other elves are their offspring. Maybe they never consummated their marriage and that "long man" is meant for other men.

It's also probably somewhat related to royal traditions where kings and queens only spent time together to mate, and the king spent most of his time hunting and carousing with his mates.

I also think in this book Pterry introduces the notion of the Queen Elf world as a hive culture. Nightshade mentions that there can only be one queen at a time, and most of the elves do behave with a hive-like mentality, although certainly willing to rebel against the power structure. In such a world the King could be the elves' only "drone," a mostly useless fellow who is mostly exiled from the Queen's world (although one could argue that his own sweat lodge was just as legitimate a world as the Queen's world). But in The Shepherd's Crown Peasebottom tries to upset the matriarchial order of the Qeen's world--in a sense, trying to become the new King. This is just another of the many examples of "traditional-gender-role-upheavals" the occur throughout the book.

feanor · Oct 2, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Tonyblack said:

Thanks Tony. I appreciate it.

Tonyblack · Oct 6, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

On my reread I just came across a 100% Terry Pratchett Stealth Pun. :laugh:

Terry Pratchett said:

RubyRose90 · Oct 6, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Hi

I wondered if someone could help me....!?

My boyfriend is a huge Terry Pratchett fan and has all his books in paperback. I want to buy him this one but I can't see anywhere that they have released this in paperback format.

I wondered if anyone could help me if they know if it's being released in paperback or not?

Thanks x

Tonyblack · Oct 6, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

RubyRose90 said:

Hi RubyRose - the reason you can't find a paperback copy of this book is that there isn't one yet. It will come out in paperback, but probably not for a while yet. My guess is that it might be next year that it comes out.

raisindot · Oct 6, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Tonyblack said:

See, here's more of my obstinate "I say tomato, everyone else says tomahto" territory. In my "review" in an earlier post that upset so many people I referred to this sledgehammer-subtle pun as an example of so much of the forced writing in the book.

raisindot · Oct 6, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

raisindot said:

Tonyblack said:

See, here's more of my obstinate "I say tomato, everyone else says tomahto" territory. In my "review" in an earlier post that upset so many people I referred to this sledgehammer-subtle pun as an example of so much of the forced humor in the book.

Tonyblack · Oct 6, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

That just goes to show how much notice I pay to your posts, raisin. I apparently completely missed it when you posted it earlier. :doh:

raisindot · Oct 7, 2015

Re: The Shepherd's Crown **Spoilers Allowed**

Tonyblack said:

That's okay, Tony. I'm quite accustomed to having my posts ignored. It's when people actually read them when all the troubles start.... :laugh:

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