Unseen Academicals - Revelation!

[The Mad Collector]

Apart from being gay, you mean?

A genuine lol Am I that wrong? I didn't think that he was gay at all! I'm rereading the Johnny Maxwell trilogy right now bit I'll going back in (ooer) asap.

Interesting reading I must say. I've just reread UU and imo Bengo Macarona was portrayed as very much a ladies man.

He's the Captain Jack Harkness of the Discworld.

The first time Bengo Macarona is mentioned.

‘Oh, that’s Professor Bengo Macarona, Archchancellor. From Genua, remember? He’s swapped with Professor Maidenhair for a year.’
‘Oh, right. Poor old Maidenhair. Perhaps he won’t get laughed at so much in a foreign language. And Mister Macarona’s here to better himself, yes? Put a bit of polish on his career, no doubt.’
‘Hardly, sir. He’s got doctorates from Unki, QIS and Chubb, thirteen in all, and a visiting professorship at Bugarup, and he has been cited in two hundred and thirty-six papers and, er, one divorce petition.’
‘What?’
‘The rule about celibacy isn’t taken seriously over there, sir. Very hot-blooded people, I understand, of course. His family owns a huge ranch and the biggest coffee plantation outside Klatch, and I think his grandmother owns the Macarona Shipping Company.’
‘So why the hell did he come here?’
‘He wants to work with the best, sir,’ said Ponder. ‘I think he’s serious.’
‘Really? Oh, well, he seems like a sensible chap, then. Er, the divorce thing?’
‘Don’t know much, sir, it got hushed up, I believe.’
‘Angry husband?’
‘Angry wife, as I heard it,’ said Ponder.
‘Oh, he was married, was he?’
‘Not to my knowledge, Archchancellor.’
‘I don’t think I quite understand,’ said Ridcully.
Ponder, who was not at all at home in this area, said very slowly, ‘She was the wife of another man… I, er, believe, sir.’
‘But I—’
To Ponder’s relief, light dawned on Ridcully’s huge face. ‘Oh, you mean he was like Professor Hayden. We used to have a name for him… ’
Ponder braced himself.
‘Snakes. Very keen on them, you know. Could talk for hours about snakes with a side order of lizards. Very keen.’
‘I’m glad you feel like that, Archchancellor, because I know that a number of the students—’
‘And then there was old Postule, who was in the rowing team. Coxed us through two wonderful years.’ Ponder’s expression did not change, but for a few moments his face went pink and shiny. ‘A lot of that sort of thing about, apparently,’ said Ridcully. ‘People make such a fuss. Anyway, in my opinion there’s not enough love in the world. Besides, if you didn’t like the company of men you wouldn’t come here in the first place.

 

[Tonyblack]

By the way - Dave Hayden is a member of the Cunning Artificer's site and is who Prof. Hayden is based on. He does indeed give talks on snakes and lizards. Terry contacted Dave while he was writing UA and asked his permission to use him in the book. Dave and his partner, Chris got married recently.

 

[rockershovel]

However Nanny Ogg's putative dwarf ancestry

??? Where did you get this from? Her family line goes back hundreds, maybe thousands, of years but there's no dwarf ancestry in it.

it's certainly mentioned in Wikipedia. I definitely remember it as a throw-away line in one of the Witches books, although I don 't recall quite where. I think it's in Witches Abroad, and is related to the incident where she has a farmhouse dropped on her head.

She appears to have been notably promiscuous as a younger woman, and shows no aversion to a flirtation with Casanunda, so although she appears to be descended from long-establushed Ramtops stock ( cf 'Oggham' in Lords and Ladies ) it's probably a fair bet that her ancestry might be found to contain pretty much anything and everything necessary for a good joke or plotline..

 

[rockershovel]

I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the exact word used to transliterate the term for the leader of a specific dwarf grouping or clan into another language.

I'm sure that Carrot provides the comment about 'King' meaning 'Chief Engineer' on the basis that you don't stay either for long if the roof falls in on your subjects/workforce/relatives.

I'd say the dwarfs are specifically Jewish-based because of their emphasis on the power of words per se, and their concept that dwarfishness is transmitted and not a matter of theology. Islam is is most definitely religious, and dwarfs ( by their account ) have no religion as such.


I don't see how anyone would become Low King without being a grag first.

 

[One Man Bucket]

I'd be willing to accept that Carrot isn't the best at translating from dwarfish to Morporkian but I fail to see why Sharn would then make the same translation errors as he did.

I'm sticking with my belief that every leader of a suitably sized dwarf enterprise can use the title of king but for clarity's sake I'll say the type of king they are is vastly different from the type of king the Low King is.

 

[rockershovel]

essentially, yes. Carrot was talking in the context of a literal mine, and underground excavation. In Madame's case the term might be rendered as 'Managing Director' and it would mean the same thing - the individual most trusted to oversee the enterprise, due to their decision making abilities and overall knowledge of the business in hand.

It's also clear from 5th Elephant that Rhys is regarded as a proxy negotiator for a significant number of clans and individuals. Whether this constitutes and 'agency' basis - leaving him with the subsequent problem of negotiating with those sub-groups - or whether they sell directly at his agreed price, we aren't told, but there must be some sort of centralised structure as he has guards and a court and hence, revenue.

Likewise it's far from clear quite how any specific dwarf is recognised as a grag. It's clear from 5th Elephant and Thud! that their function is to advise, interpret, adjudicate and where necessary govern to some extent, in a context whereby local interpretations vary.

I'd suggest that 'grag' is a title bestowed by general consent on any dwarf able to attract sufficient support for his views, and/or ( because it may not be the same thing ) recognised as such by one or more self-selecting groups commonly recognised in this capacity; ie a grag may be self-appointed - in which case his authority only extends to those familiar with, and in agreement with, his doctrine; or he may be appointed by a recognised body, in which case he would be accorded the status by third parties on the strength of that and his verdicts accepted as 'correct' or 'orthodox'

 

[Anonymous]

By the way - Dave Hayden is a member of the Cunning Artificer's site and is who Prof. Hayden is based on. He does indeed give talks on snakes and lizards. Terry contacted Dave while he was writing UA and asked his permission to use him in the book. Dave and his partner, Chris got married recently.

Aww

But on a not so bright note: What is with putting in all those references to friends and family in instead of having the established characters work on their own? It's puzzling

 

[One Man Bucket]

I'd suggest that 'grag' is a title bestowed by general consent on any dwarf able to attract sufficient support for his views, and/or ( because it may not be the same thing ) recognised as such by one or more self-selecting groups commonly recognised in this capacity; ie a grag may be self-appointed - in which case his authority only extends to those familiar with, and in agreement with, his doctrine; or he may be appointed by a recognised body, in which case he would be accorded the status by third parties on the strength of that and his verdicts accepted as 'correct' or 'orthodox'

A good theory but how do you account for Grag Bashfulson? The most influential Ankh Morpork dwarfs seem to just barely recognise him as one and the Uberwald grags seem to view him with contempt. Rhys took him into her inner circle but she's a reformer so giving a controversial grag an advisory position seems just the sort of thing she'd do.

 

[Anonymous]

A further note here (just sprang to mind...think I should get a healthier sleeping rythm to avoid thoughts like that?):

Could it be that homosexuals are the only minority/fringe group on the disc that actually get the full hatred, prejudice etc without having anyone to stand up for them?
I recently re-read Jingo and the note about Mr Harris in combination with what was said above and further it seems to me as if Gays are viewed as something fully unnatural, someone with a disease/disorder and dispicable even on the disc. Lesbians maybe not so much, but I can't say anything about that as I haven't read MR.
Happenings get hushed by the public and are best kept secret etc. Or seemingly get shrugged of as either -yeah, sometimes such (unnormal) things happen- or the like.

It's bothering me a bit. You thing Mr Pratchett maybe did that on purpose to show that even in a place like AM the worst and most stupid kind of prejudice prevails despite everything around it?

 

[Tonyblack]

I think prejudice of all sorts is pretty widespread on the Disc. Jingo makes that clear. Vimes himself seems prejudiced against vampires - although he's getting better.

Unfortunately, prejudice is a very human thing and Terry writes about humanity and all its flaws.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, but it seems a bit as if all other minorities have their support/groups that fight for their rights.
Except homosexuals.
It's a bit as if people in AM would rather scold someone for words or actions against vampires, undead, etc than for words or actions against homosexuals.
It's weird.

 

[One Man Bucket]

All races/cultures/species get grief and have snide remarks directed at them it's just unlike homosexuals they have people willing to champion their cause.
Let's take Golems for example they got and still get grief it's just now they're willing to stand up for themselves and Miss Dearheart is willing to raise her voice in their defence

 

[poohcarrot]

Golems are not a race. They are artificially intelligent machines and should all be smashed to pieces before it's too late! :twisted:

(sorry about that! I was just getting in some practice for monday)

 

[Anonymous]

All races/cultures/species get grief and have snide remarks directed at them it's just unlike homosexuals they have people willing to champion their cause.

That's what I meant. It's mind-boggling a bit.

 

[One Man Bucket]

All races/cultures/species get grief and have snide remarks directed at them it's just unlike homosexuals they have people willing to champion their cause.

That's what I meant. It's mind-boggling a bit.

My point is nobody has spoken up for them yet and/or they haven't reached the conclusion that there's power in numbers just like prior to 5th Elephant nobody thought twice about treating Golems like faecal matter.

 

[Anonymous]

Just realized something else:

In the end, when the orc and Glenda go to the palace Drumknott has positioned guards with crossbows to shot them on command. Apparently he stationed them without Vetinari knowing after he seemed to have talked with Margolotta (after all, he looks at HER before he reveals that bit of information to the Patrician.)
When Vetinari says to stand the guards down her ladyship seems (to me) somewhere between puzzled and outraged.

Now, here's the thing:
The orc is nigh-immortal. The crossbow-bolts would be useless in the long run.
The bolts would only kill the orc's love-interest(Glenda), likely sending him in a berserker-rage and rampage through the palace and the city.
Now, Margolotta's ought to be FULLY AWARE of that, still she apparently suggested to Drumknott to place them guards there like that.

What the hell is the woman planning?

 

[AgProv]

Gayness on the Disc

Like Tony says, this is a book where Terry finally starts to look at gender confusion and homosexuality for real, rather than playing around it like in Monstrous regiment. Whilst it doesn't matter, it's still a valid point for discussion, but I can't remember enough of the book to say any more.

Hi Dotsie

I agree with you - Terry did introduce the Blue Cat Club and its proprietor Mr Harris in a previous book (Jingo), but only as a footnote - Rosie Palm was quoted as being his biggest supporter, quoted as saying "un-natural acts are only natural". Mr Harris also sits on the Seamstresses' Guild Council, thus implying gay men are not only tolerated, but quietly thrive, in Ankh-Morpork. It's a quantum leap forward from the first Discworld books, where part of the enmity between Heroes and Wizards is the homophobia of the former, who use "gay" as a slur against wizards, who resent it (Despite the implied homoerotica of typical Hero garb). And I believe if you go this far back (to The Light Fantastic) , you even have Terry talking about young student wizard apprentices running away from their masters out of "a lingering taste for heterosexuality", so even Terry played with the "many Wizards are actively predatorily gay" trope at one point...

how we have all advanced since then...

(To blow my own trumpet, and why not, the status of gays on the Discworld is something I've worked on in my fanfic... it appears to have garnered largely positive reviews so far...)

 

[Dotsie]

Hi AgProv, do you think that the students were running away because their teachers were gay, or because they the sudents themselves couldn't handle abstinence? I would assume it was the latter, but I don't remember it.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Gayness on the Disc

(To blow my own trumpet, and why not, the status of gays on the Discworld is something I've worked on in my fanfic... it appears to have garnered largely positive reviews so far...)

Hey, I blow my own trumpet for my fanfics often enough. But you have the advantage of actually getting reviews *envy*

 

[Anonymous]

I'm a bit worried now about the depiction of homosexuals in UA.
Quite a few people say it is brave and awesome to have characters like macarona and pepe in there, but I'm, as said, a bit worried now.
Just finished a documentary on homosexuality in society and a bit a homophobia sent me thinking.

Two stereotypes of homosexual men often use in homophobes' fearmongering are thus, accourding to the documentary:

1) A gay will stop at nothing to get his pleasure, not caring for anyone else than himself at it. This will, if not prevented, lead to the destruction of marriages.

2) Normal men having sex with a gay will lose their potence and will due to this enter a life full of anger, brutality and abuse of subtances in hope to forget what crime they commited.

I dearly, dearly hope that it was a accident, if fatal, that Macarona and Pepe are, well, those two stereotypes