SPOILERS Willikins Character Discussion
- Thread starter Tonyblack
- Start date
He pretty much morphed from rather undefined traditional manservant with a talent for fighting in Jingo to his "street thug becomes butler-assassin" in Thud!, where his backstory was revealed. One would assume that after Willikins' efficient dispatch of one of the down-deeper dwarfs Vimes considered him to be his sidekick muscle. I don't particularly like the dialogue Pterry gave him in Snuff. Willikins was much better as a man whose dialogue was oblique and laden with double-meanings. In Snuff he, goes on long-winded monologues often mixing "proper" and "cockney-type" phrases that, like most everyone's monologues on the book, spell everything out rather than using subtleties to allow readers to fill in the gaps.
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Tonyblack
Hmph. It's been a few years since I read Snuff, but never noticed the incongruities between Willikins's "proper servant" and "cockney-type" phrases. What kind of things do you mean, raisin?
When does Willikins become "cockney"? Does he play the "proper servant" when Lady Sybil is within earshot, but becomes "cockney" when he and Vimes are out on the hunt/chase/whatever?
Willikins is very prim, proper, and "Downton Abbey"-ish in Jingo and Night Watch (note his use of the word "primigravidae" - I'll never forget that word now!) In Jingo, he disappears for a long time, and then reappears in dramatic fashion - "ALL RIGHT, MY SONS! LET 'EM HAVE IT RIGHT UP THE JOGRAPHY!" (I love it!)
Not to mention 71-Hour Ahmed's interaction with Willikins ... "Long time between noses, eh?" / "Ah ha ha ha, sir."
But as I said, I haven't read or listened to Snuff recently ... perhaps I should.
When does Willikins become "cockney"? Does he play the "proper servant" when Lady Sybil is within earshot, but becomes "cockney" when he and Vimes are out on the hunt/chase/whatever?
Willikins is very prim, proper, and "Downton Abbey"-ish in Jingo and Night Watch (note his use of the word "primigravidae" - I'll never forget that word now!)
In Jingo, he disappears for a long time, and then reappears in dramatic fashion - "ALL RIGHT, MY SONS! LET 'EM HAVE IT RIGHT UP THE JOGRAPHY!" (I love it!) Not to mention 71-Hour Ahmed's interaction with Willikins ... "Long time between noses, eh?" / "Ah ha ha ha, sir."
But as I said, I haven't read or listened to Snuff recently ... perhaps I should.
He reminds my of a much younger version of Michael Caine's Alfred in the Batman films. There's the trace of a Cockney accent there, but underneath a sort of "posh" accent. For the longest time I saw him as Jeeves and also imagined him as a deal older than Vimes - but thinking of it, he was referred to as "the boot boy" in Night Watch, so he must be about the same age.
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RathDarkblade
I guess a plausible explanation might be down to Willikins adopting a more formal mode of speech when in engaged in his professional duties that are totally different from when he is 'off duty', so to speak. I know the way I spoke when working in the casino (particularly the Salon Privé which is generally for posh/rich/VIP customers) was completely different from when I was outside (less swearing on duty being just one). It's more than likely that he was more relaxed and 'informal' (for want of a better word) when in the company of just Sam as his manservant rather than being around the other nobility in his role as the butler.
Of course, this speculative explanation could also be a load of horse apples.
Of course, this speculative explanation could also be a load of horse apples.
Penfold, I refer you to my question earlier - to wit:
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When does Willikins become "cockney"? Does he play the "proper servant" when Lady Sybil is within earshot, but becomes "cockney" when he and Vimes are out on the hunt/chase/whatever?
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Great minds, and all that.
Tony, you're right - Willikins did remind me of Alfred from the Batman films, at least in Jingo.
Just a slight bit of nitpickery here - I'll check Night Watch, because I couldn't remember he was a boot boy. *checks* Yes ... on the bottom of page 49, Forsythe the butler refers to Willikins disparagingly as "The scullery boy". On the bottom of page 50, it states that Sybil "looked about sixteen" ... so, if Vimes travelled 30 years back into the past, then at the time of Young Sam's birth, Sybil would have been 46. (It's unclear how old the then-young Sam Vimes was in Night Watch - possibly 16 also?)
Objectively speaking, is there a difference between a "boot boy" and a "scullery boy"? I looked them up in wikipedia, and they appear to be almost the same - except that the rank of a boot boy could be held by a pre-teen, whereas a scullery boy had to be a young teen. In terms of duties, though, they appear to be very similar.
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When does Willikins become "cockney"? Does he play the "proper servant" when Lady Sybil is within earshot, but becomes "cockney" when he and Vimes are out on the hunt/chase/whatever?
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Great minds, and all that.
Tony, you're right - Willikins did remind me of Alfred from the Batman films, at least in Jingo.
Just a slight bit of nitpickery here - I'll check Night Watch, because I couldn't remember he was a boot boy. *checks* Yes ... on the bottom of page 49, Forsythe the butler refers to Willikins disparagingly as "The scullery boy". On the bottom of page 50, it states that Sybil "looked about sixteen" ... so, if Vimes travelled 30 years back into the past, then at the time of Young Sam's birth, Sybil would have been 46. (It's unclear how old the then-young Sam Vimes was in Night Watch - possibly 16 also?)
Objectively speaking, is there a difference between a "boot boy" and a "scullery boy"? I looked them up in wikipedia, and they appear to be almost the same - except that the rank of a boot boy could be held by a pre-teen, whereas a scullery boy had to be a young teen. In terms of duties, though, they appear to be very similar.
He also gets younger throughout the Watch series; in G!G! he is referred to as being 'so elderly the knocking might have reanimated him' (assuming he is the same butler, as he doesn't have a name at this point). He also speaks quite cockney even though on duty (drops his aitches). He gets his name in MAA, where he is also referred to as an 'old retainer', so still definitely pretty ancient. By the end I'd say in he's in his fifties.
Penfold, I refer you to my question earlier - to wit:
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When does Willikins become "cockney"? Does he play the "proper servant" when Lady Sybil is within earshot, but becomes "cockney" when he and Vimes are out on the hunt/chase/whatever?
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When does Willikins become "cockney"? Does he play the "proper servant" when Lady Sybil is within earshot, but becomes "cockney" when he and Vimes are out on the hunt/chase/whatever?
=======
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=Tamar
Penfold, I refer you to my question earlier - to wit:
=======
When does Willikins become "cockney"? Does he play the "proper servant" when Lady Sybil is within earshot, but becomes "cockney" when he and Vimes are out on the hunt/chase/whatever?
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When does Willikins become "cockney"? Does he play the "proper servant" when Lady Sybil is within earshot, but becomes "cockney" when he and Vimes are out on the hunt/chase/whatever?
=======
Note this only happens in Snuff, where verbosity and monologues replace subtlety and wit. In other books, he's almost always 100% proper.
Also, he and Vimes are around the same age. In Thud! the two discuss the gangs they had joined as kids. It is possible that Willikins is a bit older, but I like to think of them as the same age. It makes for a much nice "contemporary" partnership rather than a "mentor/idiot" Jeeves/Wooster type relationship.
What you’re seeing is very fast code-switching between RP.(Received Pronunciation) and the Cockney local vernacular. Lord Reith’s ideal for the BBC was to have a version of English so clearly-enunciated it could be understood from Land’s End (the south-western tip of Cornwall) to John O’Groats (north-eastern tip of Scotland). In point of fact it got very much mixed up with assumptions about class, and regional accents are much more accepted in broadcasting today, but people code-switch most commonly for work, or to find common ground between different groups of people. Edicated/modulated/polysyllabic vs a rougher urban or rural way of speaking.
I'm not sure what you mean by "BBC English", Tony. I guess you mean the BBC news? I'm pretty sure BBC dramas portray a vast array of dialects.
The ABC News down here (in the land of drop-bears, crocodiles who own pubs and Mad dwarves with crossbows) has a similar policy on English - i.e. to be easily understood, rather than to portray a mix of regional accents. (We save those for local dramas etc.)
But I don't think ABC (or BBC) are trying to be offensive or "snobby". Natural disasters (e.g. floods, wildfires/bush fires etc.) happen here every year. When they do, people rely on the ABC (especially ABC Radio), especially if they live in a disaster zone. ABC Radio tells them which roads are safe, etc. A clearly understood dialect can mean the difference between life and death. I'm guessing BBC does the same?
Just to be clear: I'm not either for or against RP, but compared to fires and floods, the perception of RP as "snobby" (i.e. what Woofb mentioned as "assumptions about class") is a very minor issue.
The ABC News down here (in the land of drop-bears, crocodiles who own pubs and Mad dwarves with crossbows) has a similar policy on English - i.e. to be easily understood, rather than to portray a mix of regional accents. (We save those for local dramas etc.)
But I don't think ABC (or BBC) are trying to be offensive or "snobby". Natural disasters (e.g. floods, wildfires/bush fires etc.) happen here every year. When they do, people rely on the ABC (especially ABC Radio), especially if they live in a disaster zone. ABC Radio tells them which roads are safe, etc. A clearly understood dialect can mean the difference between life and death. I'm guessing BBC does the same?
Just to be clear: I'm not either for or against RP, but compared to fires and floods, the perception of RP as "snobby" (i.e. what Woofb mentioned as "assumptions about class") is a very minor issue.
