SPOILERS Wyrd Sisters Discussion *Spoilers*

[GrannyWeatherwax]

Phew, that's a relief doughnut Jimmy.

I'm going to go and spend a bit of time in the 'how to' and FAQ' to work out the quote thingy.

I haven't used online chats like this since the days of MIRC and newsgroups (used to post to Alt.fan.pratchett back in the 90's).

 

[Doughnut Jimmy]

Tony has explained a lot of it in the ask Stibbons thread in the Broken Drum, that's where I've learnt most of it

 

[theoldlibrarian]

On a separate matter, what do you think of Vitoller as a character?
I thought he was a brilliant creation and should of had a bigger role in the book or even series.

 

[Tonyblack]

I liked him as well, I could just imagine him. The whole troupe were pretty good and, rather like the Zoons in Equal Rites, I'd have liked to know more about them.

 

[kakaze]

But, it's clear that Pratchett was working quickly, and making small errors (not caught by his publishers) at this stage. For example, Verence (as ghost) see the coach being pulled by his own horse go tearing out of the castle when he goes looking for the baby he believes is his son.
But one horse has turned into multiple horses by the time it arrives at where the witches are. And while Granny works the death of the primary confederate guard and sends him off to be a sailor, they all go home and apparently leave the coach and horses where they were meeting.

That's the way I read it as well, but it could also be read that the carriage is being pulled by his horse, in addition to others. Kinda odd way to write it though.

This is one of the errors I was thinking of:

'If you do confess,' said the duchess, 'you will merely be burned at the stake. And, please, no humorous remarks.'
'What false rumours?'
The duke closed his eyes, but the visions were still there 'Concerning the accidental death of the late King Verence.' he whispered hoarsely. The air swirled again.
Nanny sat with her head cocked to one side, as though listening to a voice only she could hear. Except that the duke was certain that he could hear something too, not exactly a voice, something like the distant sighing of the wind.
'Oh, I don't know nothing false,' she said. 'I know you stabbed him, and you gave him the dagger. It was at the top of the stairs.' She paused, head cocked, nodded, and added, 'Just by the suit of armour with the pike, and you said, "If it's to be done, it's better if it's done quickly", or something, and then you snatched the king's own dagger, the very same what is now lying on the floor, out of his belt and—'
'You lie! There were no witnesses. We made . . . there was nothing to witness! I heard someone in the dark, but there was no-one there! There couldn't have been anyone seeing anything!' screamed the duke. His wife scowled at him.
'Do shut up, Leonal,' she said. 'I think within these four walls we can dispense with that sort of thing.'
'Who told her? Did you tell her?'
'And calm down. No-one told her. She's a witch, for goodness sake, they find out about these things. Second glance, or something.'
'Sight,' said Nanny.
'Which you will not possess much longer, my good woman, unless you tell us who else knows and indeed, assist us on a number of other matters,' said the duchess grimly. 'And you will do so, believe me. I am skilled in these things.'
Granny glanced around the dungeon. It was beginning to get crowded. King Verence was bursting with such angry vitality that he was very nearly apparent, and was furiously trying to get a grip on a knife. But there were others behind – wavering, broken shapes, not exactly ghosts but memories, implanted in the very substances of the walls themselves by sheer pain and terror.
'My own dagger! The bastards! They killed me with my own dagger,' said the ghost of King Verence silently, raising his transparent arms and imploring the netherworld in general to witness this ultimate humiliation. 'Give me strength...'
'Yes,' said Nanny. 'It's worth a try.'

 

[Tonyblack]

Oh yes, I'd forgotten the Granny/Nanny transposition in the dungeon.

 

[swreader]

I think the reason we’re all having such trouble with what is the real relationship between Verence (2) and TomJohn is that Pratchett was, in fact, slipshod in his plotting here—but it’s in the same tradition as Shakespeare’s contrived happy endings in the comedies and settings like "the seacoast of Bohemia". In all fairness, this is an early novel, and has a fair number of typos and mistakes. Pratchett was still writing two novels a year at this time, and I don’t think he paid the attention to structural details and the development of themes that he did in later novels. The real answer is that Pratchett screwed up on this technical detail, but it doesn't make it a less effective book--just not as good as the later ones.

It seems pretty clear to me from the text that since Nanny delivered both babies, and since she says that the Queen told her who TomJohn’s father was (the Old Fool), that the boys are half-brothers. The key that Pratchett uses to make the trick plausible is the resemblance of the two men—which if they are approximately the same age and have the same father—would makes sense.

But the math doesn’t work. The Fool (Vernence2) has been sent to school and has served at least for some period of time in the household of the Felmets. That means he probably is somewhere around 25 when TomJohn then aged something less than 2 was given to the Vitollers. He would thus have been around 40, but for Granny's trick with time. But this is a novel and the author needs the resemblance to bring about the denoument. Shakespeare would have understood perfectly.

One other thing I think is significant. Granny has the same drive to excel and to see herself as smarter than anyone else in this novel that she does in the later books. But here, Pratchett pokes a bit of fun at her. Not only does Magrat actually rescue Nanny with her magic on the door (while Granny is late getting there). And when Granny tries to put her spellcasting ability down—“Can’t see it working. I’d have tried the stones if it was me, but—“ Magrat’s spell works like crazy. Granny has to yell at them to run and take cover. And once the land insists on a king, Granny is insistent that TomJohn must be that King and has no doubt that she can make that happen, even if she has to cast a time spell to do it. And she refuses to believe he doesn't want to be King until he acts the king and commands her to bring Hwel to him. It is in fact Magrat and Nanny primarily who solve the problem, and Granny has to fall in and support them.

Pratchett never lets us forget, in this novel or any other, that Granny may be very wise and very powerful, but she can be wrong.

 

[Tonyblack]

But the math doesn’t work. The Fool (Vernence2) has been sent to school and has served at least for some period of time in the household of the Felmets. That means he probably is somewhere around 25 when TomJohn then aged something less than 2 was given to the Vitollers. He would thus have been around 40, but for Granny's trick with time. But this is a novel and the author needs the resemblance to bring about the denoument. Shakespeare would have understood perfectly.

I think you're forgetting the 15 years the kingdom was taken into the future, Sharlene. Whatever age the Fool was when Tomjon was handed over to the Vitollers, he's not that much older (a couple of years it seems) when he meets Tomjon and the company in Ankh-Morpork, because he didn't leave to go there until after the witches had done there magic.

 

[Dotsie]

Actually, wasn't Verence II's father missing somewhere? Hadn't he been gone for years? I can't remember at all. But he must have been around recently to get the Queen in the family way

 

[Tonyblack]

Well the baby was around two years old when handed to the witches and it's mentioned that although Verence's father had left home, he used to turn up now and again "to visit old friends" - the suggestion being that he visited the queen.

 

[Dotsie]

Aah, that's it then. Bad parenting

 

[Tristan]

What is your favourite moment/are your favourite moments from Wyrd Sisters?

I love the three poor old wood-gatherers in the forest. While reading it I couldn't stop laughing. I still don't know the meaning of "lawks", but it sounded really funny in the context.

 

[Tonyblack]

Lawks! Don't you know that?

 

[Tristan]

I understood it was an expression of surprise...

This is a stereotypical utterance of a Cockney house-servant in literature, particularly 19th century and early 20th century literature, but by the end of the 20th century its use had become primarily ironic outside of historical fiction.

...But I didn't know this. 19th century English literature is not exactly my cup of tea.

 

[Tonyblack]

You now have one week to read or reread Thud! for the discussion that starts on Monday 1st March.

 

[Tonyblack]

I quite like the bit where Tomjon tries his 'word' magic on the bandits and it doesn't work. There's the confidence of the troupe that Tomjon is going to sort things out, followed by the disbelief that the bandit leader is immune.

In some ways it parallels what happens with the witches after the rumours about them have been spread. Granny nearly gets knocked over by a cart because her Headology doesn't work any longer. In many ways, Tomjon's skills are not unlike Granny's Headology.

 

[Draywoman]

I'd just like to share that this was my first ever Discworld play. Our local group picked it for their spring production last year, sight unseen, and none of them had ever read a discworld book in their lives! I ended up getting roped in as an adviser and then co-opted on stage because there were more characters than actors.

To try and explain the Shakespearean undertones, then the Discworld overlay, then Stephen's abridgements, followed by the complications of cross-dressing due to a surfeit of actresses (e.g. Tomjon & Verence II) left the cast utterly convinced that the whole thing was a mistake. Most of the 'jokes' bypassed even the actors who gave them, despite my best efforts. By the time we did the dress rehearsal I just wanted to crawl into a hole & hibernate

We musty have done something right, though, the audiences not only laughed every night, they did so in all the right places for the right cues


A number of the 'actors' still couldn't work out why, though

 

[Tonyblack]

It was the first DW play I ever saw and a big hit with DW fans and people who had never read any before.

 

[Draywoman]

That was the crazy part; it's not a big village and I know probably the majority of likely Discworld readers in it. They are very few. Nonetheless, the audience got every joke while the cast still had no idea...

On second thoughts, maybe that's a reflection on my abilities as an interpreter of things Discworldian...

 

[Tonyblack]

People prejudge Discworld. They decide they won't like it without even trying.

Say what you like about the plays and the movies, they at least give people a taste of DW. I think Terry gained a lot of readers through the plays and movies.