SPOILERS Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Group

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Jan 26, 2014
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

Hi everyone, I have a question for this thread, Im looking to buy Amazing Maurice and his educated rodents in Hardback, but the one that seems to be most available has a mostly dark blue cover, with a picture of Maurice in the centre. Is this how our british release hardback is supposed to look? I've seen a picture of what looks like Paul Kidby's work, - a really nice cover with Maurice, Rats, and pied piper on the front, its this one I'd like to own, but seems like its only available in paperback, is this right? Any advice anyone?
 

Tonyblack

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Jul 25, 2008
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

The dark blue cover is the original one that came out as a hardback and paperback. The Paul Kidby one is very recent I think and only in Paperback as far as I am aware. Personally, I prefer the original one. :)
 
Jan 26, 2014
234
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Wales, UK
Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

Oh ok, Thanks again Tony, you have a wealth of info on the stuff here, thats for certain! I'll hang on for a few months then, and if that cover I like isnt released in hardback, I'll just get the dark blue one. Cheers!
 

Kippy

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Feb 22, 2015
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

I read this when it first came out, but recently got the recording (by Tony Robinson), and suddenly realized how much Darktan's name reminded me of d'Artagnan. All I could think of was The Three Musketeers every time he was in a scene. Did that happen to anyone else?
 

Tonyblack

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Jul 25, 2008
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

Welcome to the site, Kippy! I must admit that I have never thought of Darktan's name in that way. I have always taken his name to be from the colour of a shoe polish. :)
 

=Tamar

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May 20, 2012
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

Kippy said:
suddenly realized how much Darktan's name reminded me of d'Artagnan. All I could think of was The Three Musketeers every time he was in a scene. Did that happen to anyone else?
Me, too, especially because of the belts that remind me of swordbelts.
 

Tonyblack

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Jul 25, 2008
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

I'm resurrecting this thread as Mark Reads is reading it at the moment. There is something in there which is connected to a thought I had recently. In Maurice, it is mentioned that the female rats are now more attracted to clever mates rather than ferocious or strong ones. This makes a good deal of sense when you think about it. The rats have become a well functioning cooperative. Ferocity is not an essential trait that would be looked for, because the rats look after each other.

Now to my recent thought. When a group is feeling secure, they can afford to breed for intelligence. This causes an evolution of thinking to take place. My thought is that this sort of thing happened with early humanoids/hominoids. When hunter gatherers started to settle down and start to grow their crops and keep animals, they had the luxury to improve the gene pool in the species. If this is the case, then it could suggest that it is females that drove evolution of mankind to its present state. Society as we know it is more matrilineal than one might expect.
 

raisindot

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Oct 1, 2009
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

Tonyblack said:
I'm resurrecting this thread as Mark Reads is reading it at the moment. There is something in there which is connected to a thought I had recently. In Maurice, it is mentioned that the female rats are now more attracted to clever mates rather than ferocious or strong ones. This makes a good deal of sense when you think about it. The rats have become a well functioning cooperative. Ferocity is not an essential trait that would be looked for, because the rats look after each other.

Now to my recent thought. When a group is feeling secure, they can afford to breed for intelligence. This causes an evolution of thinking to take place. My thought is that this sort of thing happened with early humanoids/hominoids. When hunter gatherers started to settle down and start to grow their crops and keep animals, they had the luxury to improve the gene pool in the species. If this is the case, then it could suggest that it is females that drove evolution of mankind to its present state. Society as we know it is more matrilineal than one might expect.
A logical argument, but there's a problem: farming and herding probably didn't "start" more than 10,000-20,000 years ago, but there is plenty of evidence of "intelligent," abstract behavior among humanoids for a million years before than, from the creating tools and clothes to elaborate cave paintings (some of which were most likely done by neanderthals, a predecessor species).

My own theory is that the main difference between humanoids and similar ape-like species is the humans were the first species to produce small numbers of "geniuses" who developed the tools, languages, religion, art, music, writing and other "non-hunter-gatherer" cultural inventions that spread through humanoid communities like memes. The vast majority of humanoids were still stupid lunks (like they are today), that learned how to use the things and concepts the geniuses created. Maybe when the geniuses reproduced, their children, breeding with the children of the idiots, helped improve the overall intelligence of the species, which helped eliminate the really stupid from the gene pool. But, as we know, geniuses don't always breed intelligent children.
 
Feb 4, 2013
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

I definitely admire it and I kind of like it, but it's never been one of my favourites. Like a few in this thread, I read it years ago and wasn't particularly impressed at the time, and only after I re-read it recently did I appreciate the threads and complexities involved in both its themes and in how the characters deal with them.

What stands out to me - and what I really like about it - is just how much it utterly ignores the simpler and safer conventions of children's books. Several characters openly discuss philosophy, morality, consciousness (including its possible survival after death), and societal/civilizational organization, especially among the Clan, all of which are pretty weighty. There's a lot of grisly material: mental violence due to the Rat King destroying or violating minds, rat massacres and deaths (the dog pit in particular), rat cannibalism, the Rat King's "revenge-by-domination" outlook, even child endangerment.

Also, there are dark or grey elements mixed in too, such as the bullying piper, the thuggish rat-catchers, the unpleasant Mr Raufman, and Maurice's own selfish and cynical tendencies. It's not a book for the squeamish, but given the hard and weighty material it tackles, it feels about right, especially since rats feature as the main characters.

Most of the characters are pretty great as well, playing off each other admirably. For instance, the way Maurice has to sidestep Peaches' suspicions, play on Dangerous Beans' idealism, and put up with Hamnpork's open contempt, is a great way to draw out his "cynical manipulator" side, even as he later struggles with his conscience. Particularly impressive is Darktan's progression from a rough, pragmatic specialist to an out-of-his-depth legend in his own lifetime, who has to take advice from theatrical (and hilarious!) Sardines in order to lead the rats properly. I also quite liked Nourishing's minor arc, as she's hopelessly inexperienced at first and then, without fundamentally changing, almost becomes a first disciple.

The variety of rat personalities in particular was always fun to read about, especially when they get outside their comfort zones, and their Big Thoughts reminded me a lot of the same themes in Pratchett's other works, such as in the Nome trilogy and in the Death series of Discworld books.

And, of course, there's the rat-based lore and trivia, such as the rat pits and the Rat King itself. I love when so much material is brought to the fore, as it really gives the story elements some strong grounding and keeps the narratives fresh and interesting.

I suppose what stops it from being one of my favourites are mostly a collection of minor niggles. Of all the rats, Darktan and, to an extent, Dangerous Beans feel like the only ones with any major arc, with the rest as interesting support to them. Maurice is arguably the best character; he goes to some deep and iconic places, and easily has the best moments in the book, married to exactly the sort of self-absorbed huckster traits you'd expect in a street cat turned sapient. Yet it doesn't seem like he really changes or learns anything from it, and the ending if anything implies the opposite, which is a bit of a letdown.

Moreover, Keith is academically interesting as being quietly smarter than he looks, but he's easily lost in the shuffle, and Malicia is thematically apt but kind of one-note for the most part; perhaps if they'd elaborated more on why she's so obsessed with stories, she would have been one of the best characters.

And compared with the rat-catchers' evil and the Rat King's great scene, the piper climax feels tacked-on and thin, as quickly introduced as it's dealt with. There are lots of impressive characters and character concepts, but it's a bit harder to find characters who stick with me in the way that, say, William de Worde or Brutha or Sam Vimes or Death or even Moist and Granny Weatherwax manage (a high bar to clear, I'll admit, but still).

Lastly, an awful lot of it happens in tunnels and cellars, which begins to feel a bit repetitive after a while. Some of the family-unfriendly material feels a bit much at times, like he was actively exaggerating how unfriendly it was (the widdling jokes, in particular, began to lose their charm fast for me). And while many of the concepts are fantastic (like the rats' veneration of Mr Bunnsy Has An Adventure, a children's book, as if it were a revelatory holy book), a few seem a bit of an odd fit for Discworld in particular.

Malicia's blurring of narrative convention and reality, for instance, feels like it should be a discordant note compared with the harsh reality of Bad Blitz, but Discworld has long been established as a place where narrativium actually exists. Also, the Rat King's psychic powers feel a bit unexplained (to have them over rats makes a kind of sense, I suppose; to have them over other species as well just draws attention to how random the idea is).

Overall, a strong work that's easy to admire for what it does, but - with one or two exceptions - I find it a little hard to actually like above and beyond that.
 

=Tamar

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May 20, 2012
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

The blurring of narrativium and comparatively ordinary reality isn't limited to Malicia. As you point out, on the Disc, narrativium exists and the power of Story to alter reality has been demonstrated by Granny Weatherwax (causing someone's arm to burst into flames, for instance). Malicia isn't fighting Story, but she's using it to create her own reality, to enliven her small-town life. She's using her family's stories as guidelines for behavior and for how things ought to be - they are her equivalent of Mr. Bunnsy. Even when she has some real adventure, she clings to the form and the symbolism (wanting "a bang-up tea with cream buns" to conclude the story properly). Malicia knows intellectually that the stories are invented, but she still feels a need for the structure in them.

In a complementary reversal, the rats have to give up believing their adopted story, yet they eventually use elements of it as a map to developing a partnership.

All the rats have to deal with the fact that their holy book turns out to have been written as entertainment for small humans, even though the book's unbelievable multispecies aspect is really happening: they as rats are dealing with humans and a cat in reality, and even wearing pockets. The loss of their first religion is a major development in their culture, an upheaval fully equivalent to the effect of the sciences on 19th-century Roundworld. Meanwhile, they develop their own separate religion of the Bone Rat and the Big Rat Underground, and Darktan's survival means he has to deal with becoming an element in that religion as well, complete with stigmata - scars - that are claimed to prove the story is real. There's even a rat referred to early on as "doubting Tomato," alluding to Doubting Thomas. Their need for a Story mingles narrativium with the reality of Darktan's experience. And yet, the more-real in-story equivalent is not Darktan but Maurice. While Maurice has used Story all along to manipulate townspeople who believe a piper can lead rats to drown (when rats can swim), it's also Maurice who goes underground and defeats the Rat King (harrowing of hell), it's Maurice who can die and return, and it's Maurice who gives up a life to save Dangerous Beans. Stigmata would be lost among Maurice's many scars, though he did lose a chunk of his tail. His work there done, he leaves, and finds another stupid-looking kid, to continue his function as a cat-alyst for growth.
 

Tonyblack

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Jul 25, 2008
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

I see what you mean. I've certainly noticed the religious themes in these books - except that they aren't. The forming of ideas on how a society should work and right from wrong, is a secular and humanistic way of thinking. It's religions that hijack these ideas and make believe that a society can only work with a creation myth. The rats and Maurice have acquired self awareness. They now know that what they wouldn't like to happen to them, is something that one should probably not do to another, Maurice is going through a huge existential conundrum regarding what he used to see as his food. The fact that he has a suspicion that it was killing and eating an intelligent rat, that gave him self awareness is giving him a great deal of guilt, that he is attempting to assuage by helping the rats in his particular feline way.
 

=Tamar

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May 20, 2012
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Re: Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Grou

In a way, Maurice and the rats demonstrate how a set of experiences combined with doubts and unresolved fears can give rise to a religion. The use of elements common to several religions with which we as readers are familiar can help us to pick up that meaning.

On a different tack, I have been wondering whether Malicia's name includes a pun on "militia". I don't think she's based (much) on Alice in Wonderland (which Sir pTerry disliked intensely), and she does seem to take on some responsibility for solving problems once they are pointed out to her, while being unofficial or semi-official (due to her status as Mayor's Daughter) - like a local militia. She has flaws - she knows intellectually that her father doesn't want to take any privilege in the famine, but she says she thinks that once a symbolic effort is made, she ought to be able to get more food than other people (privileged thinking which she is unaware of). She uses her privileged status to send the mob away from the rat-catchers' shed - not to protect them so much as to ensure that the more private retribution already begun would continue uninterrupted. As Keith says, she is not a nice person. She is likely to make a matching third member of the Grim family: Agonista, Eviscera, and Malicia.
 

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