SPOILERS Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents Discussion Group

[Jan Van Quirm]

Not-read-it-yet-observer on Dangerous Beans:
The rats have names that are connected to the scavenging they exist or have existed) on from the dump/garbage pit? OK -

rats - refuse - dodgy food (whether from a packet/can/polystyrene containers - I'm ignoring the timeline in favour of humanity's persistence in being a throwaway society) - growing resistance to contaminants - finding other sources of rubbish that they can manage to eat - sewers (which may not be a feature in the book but I don't care 'cos I haven't read it) - results of humans eating dodgy food...

some of which may be an unfortunate by-product as a result of eating beans - which are obviously dangerous...?

Glad to see that Terry has been also been excused of being prescient. Correlations are too numerous almost to chuck into the sinister roots of the cabal of the eight manipulating rats to the point where almost any conspiracy theory will do. Historically we have the 'connivance' of economist/bankers and politicians after WW1 that (allegedly) greased the way of Hitler to power in a Germany that had been humiliated, bankrupted and ground into the dirt in every possible way (perhaps 'they' did deserve it, but people who weren't alive at that time suffered as much and went and caused more trouble in the 1930s). D'oh! - and of course the said clever clogs (most likely) caused the Wall Street Crash and the Great Depression as well. Silly me. Then there was those troublemakers back in the late 15th - 16th centuries, the Spanish Inquisition, The Star Chamber, The Vatican... where intelligent people found ways of directing their not so bright 'charges'

Rats ate rats. Humans still consume humans - they just don't put them in their mouths and digest them (mostly). I think I'd rather be a rat on the whole - maybe.

Totally tangential co-incidence: My MSN ID is Janowyn the Changeling - I promise I never eaten anything off a rubbish dump, but maybe I am prescient :twisted:

 

[Tonyblack]

For your information Jan as you haven't read the book - the dump the rats have been feeding on was the one at the back of the University where all the magical experiments are dumped along with the food waste etc.

These are obviously not the same rats that Vetinari was training in Guards! Guards! - or are they?

 

[poohbcarrot]

Pooh, you silly boy.

That's why the central characters in this book (contrary to the title) are the Educated Rodents. Yes, there are humans and there is a cat and there rats. But most of all, there is The Clan.

Swreader, you silly girlie.

Erroneously stating that the rats are the main characters is equivalent to blaming Bush for the last 8 years. You are completely overlooking the Machiavellian puppet master who is the real star, be it Dick (Neo-Con) Cheney, or, as in this instance, Maurice.

1. Who thought up the whole "Pied-piper" scam? Maurice

2. Who introduced Keith to the talking rats in the first palce? Maurice

3. Who is the star of the first chapter? Maurice

4. Who is the star of the last paragraph of the whole book? Maurice

5. Who acts as a go-between to bring Keith and Malicia together? Maurice

6. Who kills the evil Spider? Maurice

7. Who saves Dangerous Beans' life by sacrificing one of his own lives? Maurice

8. Who has the idea to put cotton wool in the rats' ears so they don't hear the piper? Maurice

9. Who devises the plan with the piper so that nobody loses? Maurice

10. Who acts as a negotiator between the rats and the humans in the Townhall? Maurice

11. Who puts forward the idea of the rats and humans living together in harmony in Bad Blintz, making it rich from all the tourists ? Maurice

12. Which character has the most speaking lines in the book? Maurice

I humbly beg to disagree with your analysis, because you simply cannot see the "cat" for the "rats".

 

[poohbcarrot]

But they (normal rats) don't think of the Rat King as a god because they don't think.

So what was the point in the Rat King claiming to be God?

He could have claimed to be a cheese and onion sandwich or a billiard table and it wouldn't have made a scrap of difference.

He also didn't do it for the benefit of the changelings because he thought (up until hero Maurice killed him) that he could control them as well.

So why?

 

[Dotsie]

Maybe he actually thought he was god?

 

[poohbcarrot]

Why do we assume it was a "he"? It could have been 8 female rats tied together, or a mixture of males and females.

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

For your information Jan as you haven't read the book - the dump the rats have been feeding on was the one at the back of the University where all the magical experiments are dumped along with the food waste etc.

These are obviously not the same rats that Vetinari was training in Guards! Guards! - or are they?

Could have been, Vetinari said they were more intelligent because of the University, but could not read at that time. Hence the "Special Brown Sauce" instead of beer.

 

[GrayGriffin]

Hmm...maybe. Maybe they followed Maurice because, with Vetinari out of the cells, they needed organization. They needed a leader.

 

[poohbcarrot]

Just to back up my theory that Maurice is the main character, here is some scientific proof;

There are 241 pages in my US HB copy.
Maurice speaks or is mentioned on 141 pages.
This is approximately 60% of the whole book.

It doesn't even end with "And they all lived happily ever after."

Yes, it does! The penultimate page is as about as "happily ever after" as you can possibly get. The rats and humans living together in wealthy harmony.

 

[swreader]

Pooh, you've missed the point of my discussion, but I'm not going to try to do another page long explication. I'm just going to make several important points, and one minor one.

As to your last post, Pratchett very carefully makes my point about "happily ever after." p. 230

"If it was a story and not real life, then humans and rats would have shaken hands and gone on into a bright new future.
But since it was real life, there had to be a contract. A war that had been going on since people first lived in houses could not end with just a happy smile."

As to Maurice's role--he sees himself as a kind of stage manager, a con-man who is totally determined to use everyone (rat or human) to further his own interests. But he only becomes this kind of character after he becomes self-aware--and he becomes self-aware because he ate one of the rats, who is significantly named "Additives". As he says to all of them,

""I was just a cat! I hadn't learned to think yet! I didn't know! Cats eat rats, that's how it goes! It wasn't my fault! ... He'd been eating the stuff on the dump and I ate him, so that's how I got Changed! I admit it! I ate him! It wasn't my faauulltt!"

Additionally, it really isn't Maurice that kills the rat king. When Dangerous Beans confronts the Rat King, Maurice has already lost almost all of his rationality, most of his mind. Dangerous Beans, however, is the one who, in spite of all the terror, analyzes the temptation of the Rat King, and refuses to join him. And in Chapter 11, Pratchett tells us that the final blast of the rat King strips away all that was Maurice, leaving only the brain of a cat. A bright cat, but still...just a cat. There is only one little piece of Maurice left hiding in the back of the cat brain, "the last tiny bit of him that was still Maurice and not a blood-crazed maniac, said, "Now! Bite here!" And of course, by severing the knot binding the rat kings eight parts, the Rat King dies, and the room is full of lots of rats and a bloodthirsty cat, and he almost kills Dangerous Beans before Dangerous Beans screams "Maurice!"

One final thought about the book. I suggest to you that by telling this tale, Pratchett is hoping that his readers (like the people who are described on the last page) will change and a "But a few see the world as a different place."

If you think about racial strife, tribal warfare, the stupid killings that men do, then it is possible to see that this book is about finding a different way to live together so that individuals who don't look much like each other, who perhaps believe in different gods or no gods at all, can work out through a contract a way of living together without destroying the whole round world.

 

[poohbcarrot]

the room is full of lots of rats and a bloodthirsty cat, and he almost kills Dangerous Beans before Dangerous Beans screams "Maurice!"

Dangerous Beans dies. How?

Dangerous Beans' shout of "Maurice" brought Maurice back to intelligence again. But, are we sure that Maurice didn't kill him? If he had killed him it would explain why Maurice sacrificed one of his lives to have Dangerous Beans alive again - an overwhelming feeling of remorse.

(PS Spider is made up of 8 male rats because he is the Rat King! )

 

[Tonyblack]

the room is full of lots of rats and a bloodthirsty cat, and he almost kills Dangerous Beans before Dangerous Beans screams "Maurice!"

Dangerous Beans dies. How?

Dangerous Beans' shout of "Maurice" brought Maurice back to intelligence again. But, are we sure that Maurice didn't kill him? If he had killed him it would explain why Maurice sacrificed one of his lives to have Dangerous Beans alive again - an overwhelming feeling of remorse.

(PS Spider is made up of 8 male rats because he is the Rat King! )

The way I read it was that Maurice did indeed kill Dangerous Beans - the cry brought him back but it was just too late. It's obvious that Dangerous Beans did die or Maurice wouldn't have had to use one of his lives to save him.

As to the book - I'm inclined to agree with Sharlene. The book is called The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents, and Pooh you're right when you point out on the previous page all that Maurice does - but Maurice is the cat-alyst (sorry about that ) for the story. The real story is (in my opinion) mainly about the rats and how they come to terms with their intelligence. Maurice is an integral part of that story, but it's not his story any more than it's Kieth's or Malicia's.

 

[poohbcarrot]

The real story is (in my opinion) mainly about the rats and how they come to terms with their intelligence. Maurice is an integral part of that story, but it's not his story any more than it's Kieth's or Malicia's.

(Tony, nice to see you and your good lady disagreeing about something ie; Maurice killing Dangerous Beans!)

Anyway, surely it's about how the rats and Maurice come to terms with their intelligence.

What do the rats experience in coming to terms with their intelligence that Maurice doesn't?

Religion? No. They both question religion.
Rules about not eating rats?
Learning to live in peace with other species? No.
Disillusionment? No.

In fact, the rats are just a rat-alyst for the story of Maurice.

 

[poohbcarrot]

I think of Maurice as a feline version Of Moist Von Lipwig, both conmen who develop a conscience, give their money away to a good cause and use their cunning to triumph over adversity.

Is Going Postal a book about the Post Office or a book about Moist? I would say the latter.

 

[Tonyblack]

We often disagree about things - and we very often disagree about Terry's books. But we do enjoy discussing them.

 

[poohbcarrot]

No, we don't!. We never disagree!

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

For your information Jan as you haven't read the book - the dump the rats have been feeding on was the one at the back of the University where all the magical experiments are dumped along with the food waste etc.

These are obviously not the same rats that Vetinari was training in Guards! Guards! - or are they?

Oh THOSE rats! Someone said that Vetinari says they have been on UU's tip - definitely remember reading that too.

OK further unbiased comments/discussion points -

• 1. if the rubbish on the dump is magically toxic, how much more toxic are UU's cesspits/sewers or whatever? :twisted: Definitely a food chain being established here now what with the ants - and also the bed bugs too was it (in Sourcery didn't a mattress run away too?)
  2. actually dogs are known more for killing rats than cats - does this also account for Gaspode too (as he was also known to frequent the UU environs)? :twisted:
  3. as we all know cats are already pretty self-aware and venally intelligent without eating changeling rats so how many does M have to eat before his own change kicks in?
  4. with the possibility of M eating DB (also handily restoring his self-awareness/intelligence ) does this make M and/or DB resurrected Messiah type characters having both effectively laid down lives to save the changelings? Over to you Pooh...

 

[Tonyblack]

For your information Jan as you haven't read the book - the dump the rats have been feeding on was the one at the back of the University where all the magical experiments are dumped along with the food waste etc.

These are obviously not the same rats that Vetinari was training in Guards! Guards! - or are they?

Oh THOSE rats! Someone said that Vetinari says they have been on UU's tip - definitely remember reading that too.

OK further unbiased comments/discussion points -

• 1. if the rubbish on the dump is magically toxic, how much more toxic are UU's cesspits/sewers or whatever? :twisted: Definitely a food chain being established here now what with the ants - and also the bed bugs too was it (in Sourcery didn't a mattress run away too?)
  2. actually dogs are known more for killing rats than cats - does this also account for Gaspode too (as he was also known to frequent the UU environs)? :twisted:
  3. as we all know cats are already pretty self-aware and venally intelligent without eating changeling rats so how many does M have to eat before his own change kicks in?
  4. with the possibility of M eating DB (also handily restoring his self-awareness/intelligence ) does this make M and/or DB resurrected Messiah type characters having both effectively laid down lives to save the changelings? Over to you Pooh...

Hang on there - Yes dogs do kill more rats than cats - as is shown in this book.

Maurice doesn't eat Dangerous Beans. You really need to read the book Jan.

 

[bikkit]

The matress was being carried by the bed bugs ( I think)

 

[poohbcarrot]

Jan, here's a brief synopsis of the book;

Keith and Malicia are Dalmatian spotty dogs who live near the evil spider called Bad Blintz, who thinks it's God, and who can control the weather.
The changelings are rats that have eaten some dangerous beans from the UU dump, and go from town to town dressed in clothes, pretending to be dwarves. The "Keekees" are a musical 5 piece combo playing easy listening music, whose real aim is to steal all the food, sell it, then go and live on the island of their dreams with rat-shaped cuckoo clocks. Maurice is a three-legged cat with one ear who's on a mission from Glod, an evil dwarf in league with the evil spider, who wants a state of permanent rain, all music banned and a Dalmatian-skin three piece suite.